Question about IMS oil leaks

[truegearhead]

I replaced my IMS with an upgraded unit a few years ago and just pulled everything back apart to replace a new IMS oil leak. I can see where the IMS oil seal failed. My question is where is this oil coming from? Is it passing through the bearing? It's a huge leak. I'm going to replace the bearing again due some metal shavings I found around the housing. The bearing still "feels ok" but it's obviously time for it to go. With as much oil is there was in the housing it really seems like a unsealed bearing would be the way to go.

Bonus question, I searched and searched yesterday but even with all the RMS depth talk out there I can't find a picture of one that is confirmed to be at the right depth. I don't have the tool. I seated mine 2mm past the housing face.

[78F350]

Since nobody else jumped in yet, I'll give it a shot...
The IMS bearing sits in the IMS and does not directly seal to the case. A leak to the outside of the engine would have to be from the flange seal or o-ring for the center bolt - not through the bearing itself. I had that happen on one of my '99s, so I had the whole bearing replaced as a 'while you are in there' even though there were no signs it was bad.

For the RMS, here's some Renntech:
https://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/46391-installing-rms-without-porsche-special-tool-9609-96061/
https://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/46156-rms-seal-replacement-at-45k-miles/

Note the bit of discussion about the new (PTFE) seals install 13MM from the flywheel mating surface of the crank, not 14MM

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by truegearhead

I replaced my IMS with an upgraded unit a few years ago and just pulled everything back apart to replace a new IMS oil leak. I can see where the IMS oil seal failed. My question is where is this oil coming from? Is it passing through the bearing? It's a huge leak. I'm going to replace the bearing again due some metal shavings I found around the housing. The bearing still "feels ok" but it's obviously time for it to go. With as much oil is there was in the housing it really seems like a unsealed bearing would be the way to go.

Bonus question, I searched and searched yesterday but even with all the RMS depth talk out there I can't find a picture of one that is confirmed to be at the right depth. I don't have the tool. I seated mine 2mm past the housing face.

Whose retrofit kit is leaking?

The correct PTFE install depth is 13 MM from the flywheel face of the crank hub.

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Whose retrofit kit is leaking?

The correct PTFE install depth is 13 MM from the flywheel face of the crank hub.

I don't think the bearing is leaking, I think it's just a seal leak, the kit probably performing well so I'd rather not wrongly incriminate someone.

[truegearhead]

UPDATE: Now I'm really in a pickle, the upgraded unit which failed has the larger center shaft which the IMS removal tool can't attach to. It's also very clean now after cleaning off the oil that oil is running through the bearing and pooling so both seals have failed. To add insult to injury the o-rings that came with this kit are not correctly sized and too loose. I called the company I bought this from and the answer they told me is "they haven't though about the larger shaft not matching up to the tool". I'll post up pictures tonight, not a happy camper. So I guess my option is to make a tool that works.

As promised here's a photo. I cleaned this area the day before (car doesn't have oil in it) and oil has already leaked through the bearing. I'm assuming it was full of oil, the seal can also be easy spun by hand. I'm really wondering if these would be better off with no seal. Again this is a 4 year old improved bearing.

[Gelbster]

Very difficult to make a tool that will not risk other damage. If you measure carefully the bolt diameter and thread pitch + length, perhaps there is a tool sold for other kits that will fit. I suggest this because most of the IMSB kits use an upgraded center bolt now.
Look carefully at the LN tool kits ?
M96 Faultless Tools IMS Removal & Installation Tool Kit (Req. for 106-08.2.2) LN Engineering
Maybe someone would tell you if this kit fits?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-IMS-tool-kit-for-996-986-Boxster-Carrera-/311616982393
Or make an adapter for the tool you already have.

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Very difficult to make a tool that will not risk other damage. If you measure carefully the bolt diameter and thread pitch + length, perhaps there is a tool sold for other kits that will fit. I suggest this because most of the IMSB kits use an upgraded center bolt now.
Look carefully at the LN tool kits ?
M96 Faultless Tools IMS Removal & Installation Tool Kit (Req. for 106-08.2.2) LN Engineering
Maybe someone would tell you if this kit fits?
Porsche IMS tool kit for 996 986 Boxster Carrera | eBay
Or make an adapter for the tool you already have.

I'm having an adaptor made. I called the company that sold me the kit and the tool and they basically just told me it's my problem....thanks guys. Interestingly the guy I spoke to said that he had a call a day before mine with their first customer complaining about a failed improved bearing. I'm calling it now, we're going to start seeing failures of these new bearings at the same rate as the Porsche bearings (with the exception of the oil feed ones). It's just going to be something you have to change every 5 years or so.

[Gelbster]

Before you make an adapter, can your existing tool be drilled out larger and re-tapped to the correct thread? That would be easier for you?
If you have unfortunately discovered a defective replacement IMSb, an ineffective tool and an uncooperative attitude from the designer of the part, it would be kind to share the experience with the rest of us? This is really important to help others be wary to the risk of spending a lot of money & destroying their engine

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Before you make an adapter, can your existing tool be drilled out larger and re-tapped to the correct thread? That would be easier for you?
If you have unfortunately discovered a defective replacement IMSb, an ineffective tool and an uncooperative attitude from the designer of the part, it would be kind to share the experience with the rest of us? This is really important to help others be wary to the risk of spending a lot of money & destroying their engine

The tool works great on an original IMS bearing, the problem is that aftermarket improved ones have a thicker shaft which the tool will not attached to. So it’s really not the tools fault. As soon as people start replacing aftermarket IMS's I'm sure someone will come out with an adaptor. I’ve done a lot of business with the company that sold me the kit (they also own this website hint hint) and I have always had great experiences. Even with this situation I wouldn’t go anywhere else. Redesigning a cost effective solution to a problem that even the Porsche engineers got wrong can’t be easy. Really all that there is to be learned from my experience is the cheaper IMS solutions (non-oil feed) are not absolute solutions and should be replaced every clutch change or so. That’s certainly fair given the price of these bearings compared to the oil-feed solution. Also for reference this bearing has seen 15 or so track days and dozens of autocrosses. All in all its been through a lot.

[Gelbster]

This may be an attractive IMSB alternative.Top notch Engineering. Particularly attractive if your car was originally a single row.
Roller Bearing IMS Retrofit Kit – RND Engines

[mikefocke]

When you buy a bearing made of the same materials as the ones that were originally failing, why would you expect different results?

Ball bearing IMSBs have been proven by thousands of installations to have lots longer life if made of the right materials, installed with the right tools, and if they are done carefully using the right instructions. Some are now even expected to be life of engine in normal use meaning you might get a couple of clutch changes out of one given your use of the car.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by truegearhead

I replaced my IMS with an upgraded unit a few years ago and just pulled everything back apart to replace a new IMS oil leak. I can see where the IMS oil seal failed. My question is where is this oil coming from? Is it passing through the bearing? It's a huge leak. I'm going to replace the bearing again due some metal shavings I found around the housing. The bearing still "feels ok" but it's obviously time for it to go. With as much oil is there was in the housing it really seems like a unsealed bearing would be the way to go.

Bonus question, I searched and searched yesterday but even with all the RMS depth talk out there I can't find a picture of one that is confirmed to be at the right depth. I don't have the tool. I seated mine 2mm past the housing face.

The oil is coming from splash oil in the crankcase.

The only sealing the bearing is meant to do is seal the grease inside the bearing. The bearing is not an oil seal except to the inside of the IMS tube, and that is one of the big problems with the bearing set up. Oil can get past the bearing and cook in the tube. This creates an acidic slime that can eat the IMS bearing. The bearing does not seal oil to the outside of the engine. There should be an O ring on the bolt to do that. If it is leaking lots of oil, the O ring on the bolt may be missing.

The bearing you show is not a full contact seal bearing, I'll hazard a guess it's the Pelican replacement looking at it. I bought the Pelican kit for the better bolt, and replaced the bearing with a full contact 6204 steel bearing with high temp grease and Viton seals ($6.00). I didn't catch if your engine was originally single or dual row. If dual row I'd suggest a dual row bearing.

If you have metal in the oil, your situation does not lend itself to an open bearing. Metal particles in a bearing will lead to premature bearing failure.

If it were me, I'd source a full face contact steel bearing and plan on replacing it next clutch job. If this is a case of a dual row bearing being replaced with a single row and a spacer, I'd get a new dual row full contact. I'd also replace the rear main seal. In my view leaving in a worn seal is not finishing the job.

Some folks would agree with this approach, others not. In the end it's up to you. One thing I think everyone would agree on is if it is a dual row replaced with a single row and a spacer, at a minimum go back with a dual row. Best of luck on whatever you decide.

My 2 cents

[JFP in PA]

.................................................. ..

[truegearhead]

[QUOTE=JWhen you buy a bearing made of the same materials as the ones that were originally failing, why would you expect different results?[/QUOTE]

I agree, I'm not disappointed in the fact that it failed though, I'm disappointed there's no way to remove it.

Originally Posted by Jamesp

The oil is coming from splash oil in the crankcase....

Oddly no, I cleaned off the lip just past the bearing and drained all the oil out of the car. Over night oil leaked back out of the bearing and filled that space shown in the photo. Its either oil that was in the bearing or oil that was in the tube and leaked back through the bearing.

QUESTION: Does anyone know what threads are on the revised Pelican IMS bearing shaft? I need to order some parts to make this tool. Thanks


Happy Friday guys


.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by truegearhead

I agree, I'm not disappointed in the fact that it failed though, I'm disappointed there's no way to remove it.




Oddly no, I cleaned off the lip just past the bearing and drained all the oil out of the car. Over night oil leaked back out of the bearing and filled that space shown in the photo. Its either oil that was in the bearing or oil that was in the tube and leaked back through the bearing.

QUESTION: Does anyone know what threads are on the revised Pelican IMS bearing shaft? I need to order some parts to make this tool. Thanks


Happy Friday guys


.

Contact LN Engineering, they produce Pelican's low priced kits for them and should know what size the stud is. Most likely, their supplemental IMS tool kit has the correct adaptor in it, but you should ask them that question as well.

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Contact LN Engineering, they produce Pelican's low priced kits for them and should know what size the stud is. Most likely, their supplemental IMS tool kit has the correct adaptor in it, but you should ask them that question as well.

Good call! I just gave LN a ring and they are sending me an adapter free of charge! Those guys rock!

[JFP in PA]

Charles and his crew are great for things like this. We had an IMS Solution install get hung up when the required spin on filter adaptor would not align the fitting opening correctly for the braided SS line that runs to the IMS flange, and they specially machined a new adaptor and overnighted it to the shop to complete the install. The new adaptor fit perfectly and the car has been on the street for over a year without issue. LN Engineering definitely go the extra mile to support the Porsche community.

[Gelbster]

Amazing service to the Porsche Community by LN Engineering.
This was Not their customer, it was not their problem. Truegear probably never bought anything from them. But they gave him a valuable part anyway. Outstanding.
Hopefully this standard of performance is remembered by the Peanut Gallery who so delight in disparaging LN and others.
A happy conclusion for all would be to read that an LN IMSB was eventually fitted as a replacement for the failed Pelican part. Great story, thanks for sharing with us.

Originally Posted by truegearhead

Good call! I just gave LN a ring and they are sending me an adapter free of charge! Those guys rock!

RS Roller Bearing IMS retrofit kits - RND Store LN Engineering
IMS - Products LN Engineering

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

LN Engineering definitely go the extra mile to support the Porsche community.

Yes! The staff at LN is very supportive and provide knowledgeable support with a great attitude.

I met Charles at the Rennsport Reunion at Laguna Seca and also at the Lit Show in LA and he courteously answered all the technical questions I had (and more)

PS: As long as you don't speak to him in Spanish ...LOL

[Steve Tinker]

^^^ I agree ^^^

Six months ago I contacted LN regarding their ceramic dual row bearing which has been installed in my 2001 S since 2010 (I must have been one of the first to have an IMS bearing retrofitted here in Australia).
The LN bearing has now been in service for nearly 7 years and 35,000km, so the timeframe that LN recommend for replacement is up. When I contacted LN, Charles sent me an email back saying that if I removed the old bearing & sent it back to him for analysis, he would supply me with a new bearing assembly FREE of charge - what service that is....
Its a pity that I'm in the middle of a kitchen / bathroom renovation at the moment so I'm not in the financial / time frame to replace the bearing until later this year, but Charles generosity is outstanding.
I agree totally with Mike Focke and personally I wouldn't use any other IMS upgrade other than what Navarro & Raby have engineered and marketed - they are the standard by which all others are judged.