Anybody used the LN Roller bearing IMS bearing?

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by LEJ

It's interesting how volatile this subject has become. Most shops use the LN IMSB kit and have had great success. Not everyone can send their car to "Mr. Tennis elbow" (got that patting himself on his own back) Many of his "accomplishments" have come from another shop's idea's. For the longest time he touted Type IV engines as being the "only" engine. At the same time he wouldn't even say "Subaru" and now look at what he's doing, "building Subaru" engines and he says his are superior. Hell, FAT performance in Orange CA and Outfront Motorsports are premier builders, FAT for the Type IV and Type 1 and Outfront for the 4 and 6 cyl. Subaru engines. The bottom line is Jake is good but not the "legend in his own mind" that the thinks he is.
Now along with that said, I just had a LN IMSB installed on my car (double row) the car had 62,000 miles and the original double row was in good shape but I had it done just "because" It's expensive but no where near the cost of shipping a car to Georgia, paying Jakes labor and elevated parts prices. In another 6 or 7 years years when the clutch is toast, I'll have another LN IMSB kit installed and still be money ahead had I shipped my car to Raby.

Who said anything about being required to ship your car to Raby? This whole topic is about a guy who claims to be an expert on these engines asking about roller bearings and not wanting any opinions but the ones he wants to hear. He has ferrous metal in his engine and thinks that some other kind of bearing is going to make him better. Clearly not the expert he purports to be. As a side Story he seems to want to act as though the LN bearing is a scam while his engine continues to disintegrate.

I think Raby charges one heck of a premium. But, that's his business and he can do it. If you've got a guy that knows how to install the bearing and charges less, good for you, feel free to share his info if he's quality. The point there is he isn't going to be putting a roller bearing in your engine because he also knows the LN bearing the best and most used one out there in this application.

Now back to SilverSSS slinging insults while that metal continues tearing his car up.

[Smallblock454]

Hi,

ISMB: it's a (big) business.

Another ball bearing vs. roller bearing aspect:
roller bearing: higher friction; higher inner temperature

That is why you won't find roller bearings for high rev applications.

Forces: shure there are all kinds of forces, because the IMS also transmits forces from one side to the other and it's not a static system because you accelerate and decelerate.:





Regards, Markus

[Nine8Six]

In all honesty I know nothing about the shaft, the one designed by Porsche anyway, and until today have avoided opening/reading "any" thread/forums debating on that subject. My Bearing is the best-in-the-world (20 years old now!).

However when I saw "roller" bearing as the title something told me that the IMSB business was obviously going out of control. Rollers bearings aren't necessarily a synonym of "performance" (e.g. think slow locomotive drive train applications). That's possibly why this particular thread caught my attention and raised curiosity.

You are correct Markus. You have more physics involved on rotating mass than one can imagine. Kinetic energy/velocity, momentum, gravity, floating design (or not), centrifugal force (although anything spinning <8000rpm doesn't really create a whole lot of that), dynamic energy e.g. during accel & decel of the balls/rollers. Did I forgot friction and thermal expansion?! Tolerances?!

You call this "dynamic" Markus. Personally (and my m.eng professor would agree) I call this an every engineers' nightmare

[Nine8Six]

Although, I could be wrong, that might possibly be what the MY96 needs long term. A good old tech, fat & heavy duty roller bearing. Who knows for sure

(like I said earlier, without the CAE data and engine room test results, it's all based on luck lolll)

[LEJ]

jdraupp: 3rd post, first page

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by LEJ

jdraupp: 3rd post, first page

LEJ, clear on that. Sorry, wasn't sure who you were referring to. I'm with you. I like the ln products and if money was no object, I'd send my car to flat 6 for a Raby monster rebuild. You don't need to do that though. There's plenty of qualified installers. Thanks for clarifying.

[SilverSSS]

Took car out today, engine still didn't blow up. Did i do something wrong?

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by SilverSSS

Took car out today, engine still didn't blow up. Did i do something wrong?

yes - you are damaging the oil filter to a point where it will need changing prematurely. Prepare to loose all of that $30 soon.

Carnage stuff, barely can look

[SilverSSS]

Yeah.. .. .

[Nine8Six]

RE the roller bearing, again, very strange. Personally I've never realized how much hate there was for what appears to be a little shaft. Pretty inoffensive looking shaft if I may add.

Sure Philip Vaughan would agree, if he'd be alive of course. You get the point

OP (Chris) - not sure if this all answers your question. For me I've reached the 'whatever' zone already. Thank you very much and have an amazing day!

[Gelbster]

After the theoretical debates with their lack of quantification and test data are over - there has been some field experience reported with Roller Bearing IMSB's.
To my surprise it has been positive so far. Only a few reports so far and IIRC only 10,000 miles.
Of course that little data point should be balanced against the experience with deep-groove ball bearing IMSB and the famous plain bearing alternative.
Considering the amount of work+ collateral damage from any IMSB failure, I am surprised people take any risks.

[Nine8Six]

censured: none of my business really.

(wish my boxster and everyone's long and healthy imsb life)

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Considering the amount of work+ collateral damage from any IMSB failure, I am surprised people take any risks.

If you buy a car and know of its weaknesses you'll always a person who takes risks.

If you install an IMSB by pulling it out of an engine and press a new one in you always have a risk, especially if you don't know what you are doing there and on all these videos it looks so damn easy. And sometimes the IMS and crankshaft bearings fail just because of the two engine half casing tolerances.

So if you don't like risks… buy another car…

Regards, Markus

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

If you install an IMSB by pulling it out of an engine and press a new one in you always have a risk, especially if you don't know what you are doing there and on all these videos it looks so damn easy.

Actually, it is "so damned easy" if you follow the directions and use the correct tools. With the release of the Faultless tooling, it became even easier.......

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

...sometimes the IMS and crankshaft bearings fail just because of the two engine half casing tolerances.

That's an easy fix; just use a "Roller Bearing" lollll

The roller concept was designed for trains and bridges. They are so resistant your casing (casting?!) and the bore tolerances in ref to its shaft axis will 'eventually' shift back and run-in/out true just like it was once when shipped to you from the factory

[Nine8Six]

removed that as well, wt... way too bored obviously

[Smallblock454]

Hi nine8six,

i've meant casing. Left engine block part and right engine block part. That means you have to be in very little tolerances when putting them both together. But i think most of the engines that where out of tolerance died young and where replaced under warranty.

I'm not shure if a roller bearing can handle all that tolerances. But hey, today i've learned from Jake that everything is an easy DIY fix - especially with the right tools and bearings from Jake.

Unfortunately i'm not willing to spend 2.3K for a special bearing and a special tool (plus the additional costs for a clutch and the workshop – so easily 4-5K) for a 12K car. Besides of that there is only a certified installer in the UK (which is outside the EU soon).

Well, i'm the guy who is willing to take the risk. If my engine dies some day, i'l replace it or sell the car as a roller. Also my car will get a water pump with a metal impeller installed soon. Just for being an outlaw.

Regards, Markus

[Nine8Six]

Hey Markus

Only speculating on the roller, buddy. As I've already mentioned I know nothing about this ims shaft or bearing. I did try to ask earlier for an informed answer as to why “the overkill decision”(I mean it’s a small shaft) but got some joking back. So it’s hard to be serious here.

We have a few of your absolutely brilliant Porsche engineers folks who regularly log onto our Siemens PLM forum. German thing; they are all as kind and helpful as you are so I’ll ask them directly if that roller bearing really (really) bothers me

And yes I’ve noticed the L/R split of the engine case, half moon bearing bore. I agree with you that chances that they’ll become off tolerance pretty-quickly is pretty-real. May ‘potentially’ be contributing to some of the failures, un deniable but again what do I know.

All I know for sure Markus is that Porsche Studioz (m.eng.dept) owns an investment of 1.3billion worth of RND/test rooms, IT and software. That alone makes me thrilled to be able to drive their cars, risks or not, I’ll certainly buy again.

[Nine8Six]

Have a few boxsters to retrofit

[SilverSSS]

I talked to RND today, and like their Roller bearing solution. It's a purely personal decision. After thinking about it, knowing it would cost 3k for the install with a clutch, and the car not needing a clutch. I pulled the Sump, and it was clean, not a spec in it, So, I think i'll just drive it till it needs a clutch, then do it. If it does have a major problem, Low millage used engines are only about 4-5k. That's for the 3.2. Yes, i can put it in myself. Plus, if you think about it, you got a 9 in 10 chance that you'll be just fine, and that's if the car has the single row, and you don't monitor it. Pretty good odds in my book. Or park 100 boxsters in a 10x10 gird and pick one if you have the double row, even better odds. I'm going to drive it and enjoy the /// out of it!. Great little car. :dance: