Lessons learned: Buying a "used low mileage engine"(must read)

[Jake Raby]

Yes.. A forum member.. I'd say he is prett active here because it took him 9 hours after my posting to write his email to me, ********************ing about my sharing of this story with his peers.
He made his own bed, so now he'll have to sleep in it.

Attached is a very general pic of the area of the head thats cracked.. The crack is too small for eyes that are not trained to see, so its hard to get a pic of. Its marked with the pale yellow marker near the spark plug recess.

I'll use my Hi-Res camera to see if I can get better pics for our documentation.

This is an area where M96 engines have head cracks, especially those employed in Boxsters..

If the person who did these repairs knew enough about the M96 to be making internal repairs to one, they would have known to look here for the issue... Like we did.

The last crack I saw in this area was much larger and could be seen with the naked eye at room temperature.. We repaired it and it's been give pure hell with no problems!

I agree that this story should be required reading.. The "purchaser" is very passionate about mechanical things, Boxsters and M96 engines and has been contemplating writing a book about his experiences with constructing his track car... This will certainly be a full chapter!

I have already published this story on my Flat 6 Site :-)

We've installed used motors for customers over the years, some with great success, others without. We put a used 2.5 into a customer's car last year, which we recently had to do a head gasket on (he elected to only freshen one side of the engine, against our recommendation). See our other thread for today's fun with that car.

In terms of the M96 motors, it's not unheard of to have head cracks, and sometimes, they can be very difficult to diagnose. Pressure testing is the only method, and since these cracks can be small, heating the head to temperature is highly recommended.

As to trusting an engine from a salvage yard, while we've used that approach many times over the years, it seems to be becoming more and more risky now that less qualified people are starting to put M96 motors together.

Now that we are an LN dealer and have our own M96 engine program in house, we strongly urge customers to have any work done by us, as we can control the entire operation and warranty our work.

[thehighheelsgirl]

This sounds like a horrible story, and I hope I never have to do anything like this with my car!

On the other hand, an internet forum is not a place for people to settle personal grievances or engage in name calling. I am a member on a couple fashion forums, and have seen some ridiculous fights break out in threads and that's not what we're all here for. As a new member here, I did read the rules, and it states, like I think pretty much all forums, that "do not use this forum as a vehicle to attack others." Regardless of how much dislike some of us may have for others, posting other member's names and contact info in a public domain like this is not right.

[Jake Raby]

thehighheelsgirl,

Trust that this forum will not be utilized for anything more on this subject than it already has been... I am well aware of the forums rules and will conform to them.

I know all about forum controversy; I've probably been engaged in more than ten thousand of them since around 1995 when I started posting to newsgroups and the like. Thats what happens when one thinks outside the box, gets big results and then shares them.

The "Purchaser" has come up with his own way of sharing this and when the time comes he'll do that..

Until then, I am just the bearer of the technical glitches and nightmares imposed by the "Phantom".

Where this story ends up being published might just surprise lots of people.

[pcs5978]

The Latin phrase referenced below, Caveat Emptor or "Let the buyer beware", certainly applies in this situation. As the purchaser of this motor, no one knows this better that me. But there is another phrase that people are less familiar with, Caveat Venditor which translates to ""Let the seller beware". The size, speed, connectedness and transparency of internet-based virtual communities means that if you're representing a product or service that is not up to standard, you're putting you're business and/your reputation on the line. Being "outed" to a community can be a very anxiety provoking thing and by reading the content and the subtext of the stings in this thread its not to difficult to figure out who the "vendor" is that needs to "beware". Me thinks he does protest too much.

Stay Tuned

[Rob-00BoxsterS]

Originally Posted by thehighheelsgirl

...On the other hand, an internet forum is not a place for people to settle personal grievances or engage in name calling... As a new member here, I did read the rules, and it states, like I think pretty much all forums, that "do not use this forum as a vehicle to attack others." Regardless of how much dislike some of us may have for others, posting other member's names and contact info in a public domain like this is not right.

I couldn't disagree with you more. An internet forum is the place to settle grievances pertaining to that forum and I don't see Jake or pcs5978 engaging in any questionable name calling. They are stating facts and protecting the community. I would be interested in Brucelee and/or Rkwie's opinion on this.

Personally, if I were in the market for a new (to me) engine, I would like some background on who I could (or couldn't) trust. Actually, make that for anything I purchase.

Many forums have a buyers/sellers/vendors feedback sub-forum.

Having joined our community only a few days ago and not wanting the identity of this mystery seller revealed makes me question your motives. Forgive me if I am off base with my assumptions.

[cvhs18472]

If an old animal has 4 legs, teats, weighs well over 1000#s and gives milk: is calling it a cow name calling? There is an old Polish saying that asks if a Pigs A** is still Pork--basically saying what is, is . There is no name calling here just a true story. Ed

[clickman]

Originally Posted by Rob-00BoxsterS

An internet forum is the place to settle grievances pertaining to that forum and I don't see Jake or pcs5978 engaging in any questionable name calling. They are stating facts and protecting the community.

Personally, if I were in the market for a new (to me) engine, I would like some background on who I could (or couldn't) trust.

I agree 100%. If forum members can protect other forum members from spending a LOT of $ on these shysters and the problems they create, why wouldn't we share all that we know, including naming names?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by thehighheelsgirl

This sounds like a horrible story, and I hope I never have to do anything like this with my car!

On the other hand, an internet forum is not a place for people to settle personal grievances or engage in name calling. I am a member on a couple fashion forums, and have seen some ridiculous fights break out in threads and that's not what we're all here for. As a new member here, I did read the rules, and it states, like I think pretty much all forums, that "do not use this forum as a vehicle to attack others." Regardless of how much dislike some of us may have for others, posting other member's names and contact info in a public domain like this is not right.

This forum will NOT allow any fraud to be perpetrated directly or indirectly through its pages. Thus, if we have a concern raised like this that is both serious and credible, we will allow it to air, subject to the bounds of the rules and good taste. I get to be the arbiter on both counts.

Jake Raby is a sponsor and a straight up guy, who helps us all with his tech insight. We will allow him to continue this most interesting topic.

If this offends you, please skip this thread when you read each day.

Thanks.

[Brucelee]

Im pretty sure I could come up with it if you could come up with a monster (400+hp) 3.6 for me...


I am also checking this a few times a day.. Bruce should start charging a viewing fee for such great material.

We like to keep the information FREE and free flowing around here.

[Jaak]

In my case I bought the car knowing the motor is shot and needs a rebuild (PO overfilled with 4 litres of oil). Here I am lucky as my friend owns an Independant P-Car shop and has sent it out to be rebuilt. His source has been doing Porsche & other high end names for over 20 years. I weight the "fresh crated" from the dealer VS rebuild and decided the rebuild will have 2009 upgrades done to it.

The 3.2 MY2002 from Porsche will be one they have sitting "on the shelf" and not had any updates done to it. It would cost them too much to tear it apart and provide a fix. Rebuilt would be a better option as the latest updates will be installed.

[Jake Raby]

From a technical aspect this engine situation gets even more unbelievable..

Both cylinder heads are not servicable and while they are repairable they are not worth the txpenditure of time or money to do so.

These heads had been resurfaced in the past and had a somewhat bazaar repair made to one of the cam journal surfaces so we decided to use them as a pair of 4,000 buck door stops.

We are currently prepping a set of replacement cylinder heads, we had to purchase another core engine to pull these heads from it.

It gets better. Much better.

More pics later.

What he should have done is offer a FULL refund....period. The 3k he got isn't worth his reputation. But people who sell things like this seldom care about their reputation.

I almost bought that engine when my 3.2 failed.

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Yes.. A forum member.. I'd say he is prett active here because it took him 9 hours after my posting to write his email to me, ********************ing about my sharing of this story with his peers.

[Jake Raby]

He did offer a refund.. Only after MORE money had been spent to repair this engine than it's initial cost had been. "They" were smart, they knew we would not pull the engine and incur even more cost and down time to get a refund, especially after the first rund of issues had been remedied.

Yes, the member continues to be active here...

To date, myself and my client have incurred a list of expenditures that exceed 15,000.00 when combined. For that I could have built him another 3.6 big bore with all the updates.

Hindsight is 20/20 especially when dealing with those that are not honorable.

[Flavor 987S]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

To date, myself and my client have incurred a list of expenditures that exceed 15,000.00 when combined. For that I could have built him another 3.6 big bore with all the updates.

$15K plus the +$20K for the eBay engine? Ooouch. For that much you could have bought a 2006 Boxster S with about 30,000 miles. The whole freaking car!

When are we going to start naming names? This post is getting too long with too much drama.

I hope you are getting paid by your client, Jake. Don't keep working for free. And I hope your client does not keep expecting you to work for free. Sounds like he is always looking for a "good deal".

Does your client buy his medical supplies off eBay too? I hope not. Leason learned.

If and when, I ever need a heart surgeon, I am going to make sure he charges a ton of money, and doesn't buy my stint off eBay!

[Jake Raby]

This client is more than just someone off the street... He is someone who we have built a relationship with over a period of a year and he hasn't asked for any good deals, nor has he requested that I do anything..

He has become a good friend, someone who helped me when my Dad had some serious heart issues a few months agoi and he is one serious driver that puts the engine on the edge... He was able to do somthing that no one else ever has, he broke my engine.. The oil pump drive key failed. He didn't complain, and he didn't whine and the engine didn't have a warranty, but I OFFERED to repair it and will do so for free.

We were just looking for a dual purpose alternative so he could finish his season and I could repair his broken engine taking it to an even higher level and do so without impacting my (very filled) schedule.

He wants to build more engines and he wants to build another car and he wants to be a part of the development of the M96 and sharing knowledge.

He never had to ask for anything and he isn't looking for good deals... The only reason that engine was bought off Ebay is because it had the lowest mileage of anything we could find and it was represented well.. Much better than anything we could find at a salvage yard, it just so happened that it was ONLY 4K, the price didn't matter.

Trust me, this "purchaser" is the best client I have experienced to date and on top of that he saves the lives of babies one week old or younger on a weekly basis.. Taking his Boxster and hauling ass on the track is how he relaxes, about the only way he relaxes and as far as I am concerned I am only doing whats right and what is honorable, basically just plain fair.

I have zero tolerance for failure. He broke my engine and thats not accaptable; period. It won't happen again.

You'll be seeing a lot of him soon.. His name is Dr. Phil, his alter ego is Mr. Speed...

[JTP]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

.. His name is Dr. Phil, his alter ego is Mr. Speed...

I want to meet this guy!

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by JTP

I want to meet this guy!

SOON!!! He'll probably make his first appearance in Excellence around February 2010 :-)

[MikenOH]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

This client is more than just someone off the street... He is someone who we have built a relationship with over a period of a year and he hasn't asked for any good deals, nor has he requested that I do anything..

He has become a good friend, someone who helped me when my Dad had some serious heart issues a few months agoi and he is one serious driver that puts the engine on the edge... He was able to do somthing that no one else ever has, he broke my engine.. The oil pump drive key failed. He didn't complain, and he didn't whine and the engine didn't have a warranty, but I OFFERED to repair it and will do so for free.

We were just looking for a dual purpose alternative so he could finish his season and I could repair his broken engine taking it to an even higher level and do so without impacting my (very filled) schedule.

He wants to build more engines and he wants to build another car and he wants to be a part of the development of the M96 and sharing knowledge.

He never had to ask for anything and he isn't looking for good deals... The only reason that engine was bought off Ebay is because it had the lowest mileage of anything we could find and it was represented well.. Much better than anything we could find at a salvage yard, it just so happened that it was ONLY 4K, the price didn't matter.

Trust me, this "purchaser" is the best client I have experienced to date and on top of that he saves the lives of babies one week old or younger on a weekly basis.. Taking his Boxster and hauling ass on the track is how he relaxes, about the only way he relaxes and as far as I am concerned I am only doing whats right and what is honorable, basically just plain fair.

I have zero tolerance for failure. He broke my engine and thats not accaptable; period. It won't happen again.

You'll be seeing a lot of him soon.. His name is Dr. Phil, his alter ego is Mr. Speed...

Phil's a good guy; I was in a bay a few doors down from his car when he was at Mid-OH in early June and he spent a lot of time explaining what all had been done to the car.

[pcs5978]

There are a few remaining questions that we are trying to answer before the details of this story are presented in this forum. The facts - names, dates, dollars, and documents will be presented with the intent of educating the readers of this forum so they can hopefully avoid the problems we have encountered with this used motor. Stay tuned!