RUF 3.6 x51 or Raby 3.6 rebuild - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

violametallic-S- · 08-30-2009, 09:24 PM

Hey

I’m interested in seriously taking my 01 boxster s to another level. I’ve been thinking of buying a 3.6 and doing a swap. I also heard about the Raby 3.6 rebuild. I tried to look at the flat 6 website regarding info but no help what so ever. I would like some guidance to which road I should take so I can start doing some extensive research. Pros, Cons, Price comparisons?

Thanks

Jake Raby · 08-31-2009, 02:39 AM

Lots of the details are forthcoming for our 3.6 program. We are working hard to gather more data from three engines that I am finishing now before releasing the 2010 versions of the engines and their prices. In 2010 it is our goal to inventory the 3.6 in 3 versions of tune, so we are holding off from any new build engagements to work on building our stock of engines for immediate delivery. (but are accepting binders for the first 2010 engines)

We have been solely focused on development and testing since February of this year and because of that the website has suffered.. I feel that nothing is more important than development, application and experience, so if something is going to suffer it'll be marketing.I apologize for the lack of info on the site, but no info is better than out of date info or info that isn't accurate.

I'll do my best to assist you here:
The 3.6 engine, based from either the 3.2 or 3.4 engines is our best seller. It is also our most advanced engine component wise, because the demand for it is much higher. To date we have two stages of tune for this engine and I am awaiting results from a 3rd version that I am finishing now that is going to provide the most performance to date.

One thing that you must consider is that our engine really isn't a rebuild.. Thats because we have applied new technology with advanced components throughout the engine and very, very few parts are reused internally. The engine block, crank carrier, crankshaft and cylinder heads are reused, but even they see modifications. The engine block is updated with LN Engineering Nickies cylinders coupled to JE ZForged pistons while cylinder heads are treated to reliability upgrades thatkeep them from popping expansion plugs and they are fitted with new valve guides and valves that exceed the factory Porsche standards. All engines also see billet connecting rods from LN Engineering along with all the other upgrade parts we have worked with LN to create. These range from upgraded IMS bearings to oil pump drive keys and also some other processes that we have created to keep other failures from occurring, like Tig welding the sprockets onto the IMS to keep them from slipping, etc, etc.

The list of updates is pretty much standard throughout the range of the three versions of the FSI 3.6 engine with the differences basically being in the compression ratio, cylinder head port work and camshafts.

It is difficult to compare what we offer to anything that comes from the factory.. The X 51 engine is basicaly the same engine as the non X51 unit, it just has a couple of oil system enhancements along with some nicely ported heads and different camshafts. While these are really nice factory parts, they are nothing exotic or even that exceptional when compared to a handbuilt, custom engine. I am finishing a 3.6 X 51 that we took to 3.8 liters and I expect it to make 420HP. While working with this particular build we have taken the X51 heads to the next level.

With the X 51 you have virtually all the same reliability issues that any other factory M96 engine has.. My engine program began as an answer for reliability issues with the M96, but quickly we realized that the byproduct of the components and processes we were applying was greater performance capability.. Here we are classic hotrodders, thats why we aren't afraid of boring, stroking and raising CR or doing port work, camshafts and etc. While most manipulation of the M96 has been carried out through "Tuning" by other companies, we are having lots of fun understanding these engines at a different level internally and making a ton more power!

I hope to have the three engines I am working with now completely evaluated in my labs within the next 8 weeks. After that we'll be taking a break from development to work on the website and align the program that will put engines on a shelf "in stock" for immediate delivery.

If you'd be so kind as to post the kind of performance that you are looking for, I'd be happy to help assist you with selection of an engine package. The three versions of the 3.6 that I have designed have strengths and weaknesses and were designed application specific to adhere best to the vehicles they will be applied to. We also consider the sub system modicfications that will be necessary for each of these engines to perform their best. As the version of the engine goes up, so does overall power, which requires sub system enhancements.

In 2010 we are also offering FREE INSTALLATION with any engine, because we really want to apply your engine to your vehicle, evaluate it and tune it the best it can be.

The X51 can be bought anywhere, my engine can only be bought from one source- The guy that developed it :-)

Thumper · 08-31-2009, 06:12 AM

:dance: I can't wait! :dance:

edevlin · 08-31-2009, 10:19 AM

I think I am drooling on my keyboard.......

Ed

Jake Raby · 08-31-2009, 12:28 PM

Thanks guys...
I am finishing up some test work on a stage I/ 3.6 tomorrow that will be the 2010 version of this engine.. It has the latest developments inside.

We have applied it to a fully track prepped test car that has already seen four different engines this year, including the 2010 version of the stage IIII 3.6 engine. We are keeping everything the same between the stage I and stage II subsystems and will be testing them back to back to see exactly what the differences are.

Both engines use the same flywheel and clutch arrangement, same exhaust system and same ECU and I'll be executing the same flashes between the two of them. This data will be the best we have gathered thus far as far as comparatives between the Stage I and Stage II combinations.

The camshaft masters are done for the stage III 3.6 combination now and I'll have data from that one by January 2010 with the highest CR we have ran yet, the biggest valves/ports and these awesome cam profiles that took me 6 months of thought to design.

Stage I and Stage II are smog legal, a Stage II engine passed a Smog Test in Ohio with flying colors and made 290 RWHP!

RandallNeighbour · 08-31-2009, 02:08 PM

Jake, can you tell us what the 0-60 and 0-100 times should be for your 3.6 boxster?

I know that adding 100 hp to my 2.5 boxster will be far faster, but I'd like to know just how much before I start saving my money so I can ship my car to you for that free installation!

(yes, I know the motor costs a pretty penny and it's just the install that's free)

violametallic-S- · 08-31-2009, 05:14 PM

Hello Jake,

Okay, I have a 01 Boxster S. I would like to use the same engine since it was actually built in Germany, more reliable than the rest apparently. I’m looking for about 350-400hp in the 3.6 transformation. I will also be adding a turbo a year after the "new" engine. It all sounds very intriguing but it all comes down to the price. Do you have prices for each package you offer? Or how do you price out your work?

Take Care

Jake Raby · 08-31-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violametallic-S-

Hello Jake,

Okay, I have a 01 Boxster S. I would like to use the same engine since it was actually built in Germany, more reliable than the rest apparently. I’m looking for about 350-400hp in the 3.6 transformation. I will also be adding a turbo a year after the "new" engine. It all sounds very intriguing but it all comes down to the price. Do you have prices for each package you offer? Or how do you price out your work?

Take Care

Our stage IV /3.6 engine is being developed into a "Turbo Specific" engine combination that will be available in mid 2010 with 500 HP of potential..

The stage I,II and III engines are not compatible with boost as they have higher compression ratios and greater cylinder pressures than are acceptable for any sort of boost to be safely ran.

The Stage IV engine has moderate CR with custom dished pistons, boost specific head gaskets and camshafts that also optimize boost...

The best part of a program like mine is the ability to build an application specific engine, the only downfall to this is that the engines cannot be universally applied to a broad range of applications that use N/A power or boosted power..

Prices for Stage I engines start at 16K, Stage II at 18.5K and Stage III at 20K. The Stage IV engine will come in around the same as a Stage III N/A engine since thats the base engine that it uses... All prices stated are general and I reserve the right to amend them at any time... Prices will vary from car to car and IF you have had a failure expect it to cost more!

In 2010 all Stage II and higher performance engines come with free install and I'll pay up to 500.00 of shipping costs to get your car to my location... I am currently not accepting engine orders, just deposits to secure spots in our 2010 line up.

We CAN use your engine to build the new unit from, my program is the ONLY way you can get that big power, reliability and do it with YOUR engine!

VRsyncro · 09-01-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

In 2010 we are also offering FREE INSTALLATION with any engine, because we really want to apply your engine to your vehicle, evaluate it and tune it the best it can be.

Free install!

I have a 3.4L from a pre E-Gas 996 in my Boxster.

Would be interested in hearing more details on the program.

Cheers,
Mike

Jake Raby · 09-01-2009, 02:45 PM

Yes, free install... of course some limitations exist, cars that are more complicated or have conversions already may see some additional costs.. All the fine detaiils will follow.

Ok,
The Stage 1 3.2 >> 3.6 is now proven on the dyno...

Looks like it'll be rated at 270 RWHP (with a stock 7.2 ECU flash) based on today's efforts. Tomorrow we'll apply some bolt ons and see what happens with my most popular flashes.

The Stage I 3.6 is considered my "stock" engine.

Paul · 09-01-2009, 07:24 PM

What are the choices for a 2001 2.7 motor?

Jake Raby · 09-02-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

What are the choices for a 2001 2.7 motor?

Either stick with your 2.7 base engine and have us take that to a 2.9, or make a slight conversion and start with a 3.2 base engine that could be taken to a Stage I or Stage II 3.6 with ease.

The difference in RWHP on a dynojet is 240HP from the 2.9, 270 HP from the 3.6 Stage I or 295HP from the STage II.

tholyoak · 09-02-2009, 06:07 AM

One issue that is being overlooked when comparing increasing the displacement of a 3.2 to 3.6L vs the 3.6 motor from Porsche, other than Jake's modifications fixing some of the weaknesses of the motor that keep some people up a night and not having to worry about converting to a 7.8DME on the earlier cars, is that the benifits of the variocam plus system on the factory option.

The variable valve lift and increased variable valve timing (at least when comparing to earlier 3.2 motors that use a 7.2 DME) provides substantial benefits on a street driven car. Variocam plus both increases fuel efficiency, throttle response, drivability and performance (essentially two cam profiles in 1) when compared to an engine of similar displacement not using the variocam plus system. Obviously at full throttle and load on the track, both engines will have similar performance all else being equal.

Oh and my 3.6 X51 puts down more than 300 rwhp with stock programming

Anyway, I'm sure for most people Jake's option makes a lot more sense, but at least I can go to 3.8 or more starting from my engine if I ever have an issue

-Todd

Jake Raby · 09-02-2009, 06:32 AM

This is what I did yesterday.. This engines was a 3.2 making 230RWHP, as you can see the 3.6 with the Stage I package takes the engine to an entirely different level..
The big difference is the torque!!

Today I'll be swapping a few more things and adding Pedro's TechnoTorque to the engine for some comparisons.

Not the dramatic change at around 5,500 RPM after vario cam changeover.. I still need to work on that part of the ECU flash to level the changeover point out a bit.

All of our developments can also be applied to a variocam plus engine and I am finishing a kit now that allows variocam plus heads and cams to be used with first generation vario cam engines taken to 3.6 from the stock 3.2, as well as 3.8 from the 3.6 and even 4 liters.. Of course to do this the 7.8 DME conversion needs to be done.

VC+opens up a lot of doors performance wise, for sure.. Its important for an option to be open fopr the guys that want more power without making ANY mods to their vehicle at all. Thats what the Stage I, II and III 3.6 offers to the Owners of the Boxster S. (along with upgraded cylinders, Forged JE Pistons, Performance lifters, Upgraded IMS, Billet IMS chain tensioner paddle, upgraded valves, upgraded head gaskets, etc, etc.)

Porsche can't offer what we do. And its 100% assembled by ONE Human.

blinkwatt · 09-02-2009, 08:10 AM

Good stuff Jake! Please port another dyno after Pedro's plenum is installed.

Jake Raby · 09-02-2009, 09:43 AM

I am doing the baselines in a few minutes.. We'll have data today from the Technotorque.

I am giving the techno torque data to Pedro, so he can post it if he wants.

manolo · 09-02-2009, 09:43 AM

Hey Jake,

You may have answered this before but I couldnt find it. What are you using to flash the DME? Who do you prefer for software? I have been looking at Softronic and some others but I would like to be able to make adjustments myself, not just load someone else's flashes in.

Jake Raby · 09-02-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolo

Hey Jake,

You may have answered this before but I couldnt find it. What are you using to flash the DME? Who do you prefer for software? I have been looking at Softronic and some others but I would like to be able to make adjustments myself, not just load someone else's flashes in.

We use the software from Evolution Motorsports.

manolo · 09-02-2009, 10:25 AM

OK, thanks!

23109VC · 09-02-2009, 11:11 AM

thanks Jake! I"m very interested to see what you think of the techno torque...

would it make a power gain on a stock 2.7L that you could actually "feel" from the seat of your pants?

also, on a 2.7L "base" car - for a motor swap or rebuild - what are the best bang for the buck options? going to a 2.9 or swapping to a 3.4 or 3.6?

obviously the 3.4 or 3.6 will be more powerful/faster, but are they TONS more expensive? I'd be considering not only what I end up with in terms of power, but how much $$ it takes to get me there.

For example, if the cost were, hypothetically, $10,000 to get a 2.9L with roughly 260hp at the engine, VS. $25,000 to do a 3.6L that has 300hp or 350hp... I'd opt for the far less expensive option.

if the price is $10k vs $15k and the extra $5k gets you PILES more power/torque..then that might be money well spent.. i'm looking for the "sweet spot" of money spent and results/poer/torque/reliability obtained.