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Old 03-14-2007, 05:25 AM   #1
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Rich Belloff wrote:
> I am not suggesting that climate change is not ocurring.
> As I understand it, it is ALWAYS ocurring. [...]
> Death by starvation is a KNOWN and measurable DISASTER yet
> Al Gore is nowhere on that one. Rather, his movie on a
> possible problem has made him a star!



My take on this is that when it comes to science, I trust the scientists. Hence, I believe global warming is real, and therefore I agree with Jim that it would be a mistake to gamble with their findings -- especially since it could be catalytic to the future of our planet -- way beyond the current world starvation (which you used as an argument to discredit global warming).

However, the data that the scientists now agree on regarding global warming should be approached scientifically -- to think, for example, we can cure global warming by setting speed-limits on the Autobahn is almost as silly as thinking oceanic flooding can be caused by people spitting in it.

By the way, if you think I'm trivializing the current world starvation, I suggest that you read one of my articles on this matter:
http://tinyurl.com/udrqx

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Old 03-14-2007, 06:06 AM   #2
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[QUOTE=Peer]Rich Belloff wrote:
> I am not suggesting that climate change is not ocurring.
> As I understand it, it is ALWAYS ocurring. [...]
> Death by starvation is a KNOWN and measurable DISASTER yet
> Al Gore is nowhere on that one. Rather, his movie on a
> possible problem has made him a star!



My take on this is that when it comes to science, I trust the scientists. Hence, I believe global warming is real, and therefore I agree with Jim that it would be a mistake to gamble with their findings -- especially since it could be catalytic to the future of our planet -- way beyond the current world starvation (which you used as an argument to discredit global warming).

Rich, did NOT use current starvation as an arguement to discredit global warming, he used it as an example of a real problem that was not being addressed while some are hysterical about a 'thoretical' problem. If you are an academic I give you a D- (see me), for this work.

Also do you trust ALL of the scientists, including the ones that do NOT agree that the normal temperature change is caused by the SUVs in the US? C- (see me) for this ambiguous statement.

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Old 03-14-2007, 06:11 AM   #3
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When it comes to science, I trust the Creator. Actually....when it comes to anything, I trust Him.
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Old 03-14-2007, 06:29 AM   #4
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Global warming? Let's see....Who is really all hot and bothered about this issue? Politicians right? Oh wait, no...not just them... there is also a lot of concern amongst actors (Hollywood elite)! OK actors and politicians are the ones who keep pushing this issue to the forefront right?

As a group...I think that maybe actors would be less than totally reliable as spokesmen for science. I mean really, the only credibility they ever have is when they are pretending to be something else...get real. Are the great minds on most college campuses found in the drama department?

Politicians, now they can be trusted for sure. And Al Gore...if he is the spokesman for global warming...don't make me laugh! He is a cardboard cutout, a caricature of a geek politician. These guys (politicians) will pick any cause, any calamity (real or imagined) in order to increase their power base. I propose that these guys will not stop at just picking any cause or calamity, they will in fact create or fabricate any cause or calamity in order to increase their power base. The more strident they are in proclaiming the truth of something, the more you can be assured it's a lie. If global warming is true....then we ARE in danger because they have poisoned the issue with their endorsement of it. And if Al Gore is the one leading the issue.....I rest my case.....what a sad-sack clown to have champion your cause.

The only time a Democrat politician tells the truth is when he is bad mouthing the Republicans. The only time a Republican politician is telling the truth is when he is bad mouthing the Democrats. History will judge our country harshly for choosing the Tweedeldee party over the Tweedeldum party or vice versa time after time....
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:12 AM   #5
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For the record, my cite of the issue of starvation was to show that as a group, politicians and their ilk do not get in a lather to solve a problem that costs human life everday right now, that is directly addressable, and for which there is NO disagreement on, as to its existence and human costs.

No, they would rather chat about something that MIGHT be ocurring and that might have serious consequences and that we MIGHT be able to curtail a bit, if at all.

Why? Imagine Al Gore or anyone else trying to sponsor a gasoline tax that would pay for food, water, water projects, and related matters. Well, I assert, this would go nowhere fast.

However, if Al is trying to save Malibu beachfront property being to Alec Baldwin, well, that is another matter.

Oh, yes and those polar bears. BTW- I love polar bears.

I would always go back to my list of those who WIN under the global warming is real and we did it scenario. That list explains alot.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:14 AM   #6
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The only time a Democrat politician tells the truth is when he is bad mouthing the Republicans. The only time a Republican politician is telling the truth is when he is bad mouthing the Democrats. History will judge our country harshly

So true, so true!

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Old 03-14-2007, 09:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer
Rich Belloff wrote:
My take on this is that when it comes to science, I trust the scientists.
-- peer
However, not all scientists agree that global warming is caused by humans and the emissions from our vehicles.
Most of the time, when you hear any global warming hysteria alert, the first thing they say is "Most scientists agree.." and go on from there. The truth is that most scientists (I'm not sure of the percentage) believe that we don't have enough data to make a decision as to why we are experiencing a warming trend.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:58 PM   #8
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Bringer666 wrote:
> The truth is that most scientists (I'm not sure of the percentage)
> believe that we don't have enough data to make a decision as to why
> we are experiencing a warming trend.

What you are saying here is not correct. In fact, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the vast majority of scientists agree that global warming is real and that it's the result of OUR activities and not a natural occurrence.

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Old 03-14-2007, 04:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer
Bringer666 wrote:
> The truth is that most scientists (I'm not sure of the percentage)
> believe that we don't have enough data to make a decision as to why
> we are experiencing a warming trend.

What you are saying here is not correct. In fact, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the vast majority of scientists agree that global warming is real and that it's the result of OUR activities and not a natural occurrence.

-- peer
Well, the report has NOT been issued but a summary has been. The summary was published by politicians, not scientists. Many of the scientists who participated in the report have complained of this process but to no avail.

We have no idea what the report really says and who said it.

However, that has NOT stopped the media and various governments from acting.

Same as it ever was.

Refer to my "who wins" post above.
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Old 03-14-2007, 04:16 PM   #10
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BRW-many of the scientists who are considered skeptics were not allowed to participate in this so called "study"!
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Old 03-14-2007, 05:22 PM   #11
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http://www.ipcc.ch/about/faq/IPCC%20Who%20is%20who.pdf

This is kind of interesting. If I understand this, only governmental types are allowed to participate. THEY review other people's work and make their own conclusions.

Hmmmm.
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Old 03-14-2007, 05:54 PM   #12
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People are different -- and I accept that. I, for example, tend to trust scientists when it comes to science. To obscure the fact that the vast majority of scientists in this particular field agree that global warming is real and that it's the result of our activities, is not very scientific. But that's me.

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Old 03-16-2007, 09:52 AM   #13
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More inconvenient truth

Must-See Global Warming TV
Thursday, March 15, 2007

By Steven Milloy

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As Al Gore’s movie “An Inconvenient Truth” becomes mandatory viewing for many U.S. school children and nears becoming the “official truth” about global warming, it comes as most welcome news that an absolutely gripping film rebuttal has made its international debut, much to the chagrin of true believers in man-made climate change.

Last week, the UK’s Channel 4 premiered a 75-minute film entitled, “The Great Global Warming Swindle.” Through interviews with prize-winning climate experts and others, this masterful documentary explains the origins of global warming alarmism; debunks claims of man-made global climate change; exposes the motivations of organizations, scientists and activists sounding the alarm; and explains why it’s been extremely difficult, if not downright dangerous, for climate scientists to question global warming orthodoxy publicly.

The entire film, which is creating quite a stir among tens of thousands of web viewers, can be viewed online at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4520665474899458831.

According to the film, the origins of global warming alarmism had its roots in the 1970s-era fears of global cooling and an impending ice age, resulting from the 1940-1970 global temperature decline. Swedish meteorologist Bert Bolin suggested at the time that man-made greenhouse gas emissions might offset the cooling by warming the atmosphere.

(Story continues below)

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When Margaret Thatcher became UK Prime Minister in 1979, her mandate was to reduce Britain’s economic decline. Thatcher wanted to make the UK energy-independent through nuclear power – she didn’t like her country’s reliance on coal, which politically empowered the coal miner unions, or oil, which empowered Middle Eastern states.

So Thatcher latched onto Bolin’s notion that man-made emissions of carbon dioxide warmed the planet in a harmful way, thereby providing the perfect political cover for advancing her nuclear power agenda without having to fight the miners or Arab oil states.

She empowered the U.K. Meteorological Office to begin global climate change research, a move that eventually led to the 1988 creation of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the United Nations’ group that has come to be the “official” international agency for global warming alarmism.

At about the same time, as Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore explains on-camera, environmentalism became more extreme. By the mid-1980s, environmental goals – e.g., clean air and clean water – had become so mainstream that activists had to adopt more extreme positions to remain anti-establishment.

Then when the Berlin Wall fell and the Cold War ended, many “peace-niks” and political activists moved over to environmental activism, bringing their “neo-Marxist” political philosophy with them. As Moore puts it, environmentalism became the “new guise for anti-capitalism.”

Global warming alarmism was thus borne from this combination of official British policy, environmentalism’s rejection of its own success and political opportunism by “unemployed” left-wing political activists.

With such an inglorious heritage, it’s no wonder the scientists in “The Great Global Warming Swindle” have little trouble dismantling climate myths.

Perhaps the most important bit of scientific knowledge presented is the actual relationship between temperature and atmospheric carbon dioxide.

In “An Inconvenient Truth,” Al Gore disingenuously describes the relationship as “complex” while implying that higher atmospheric carbon dioxide levels cause higher global temperatures.

But according to the geological record and data from ice cores, higher temperatures actually precede higher carbon dioxide levels by about 800 years. Twentieth century data support this idea in at least two ways. First, most of the 20th century’s warming occurred before 1940, while most of the century’s greenhouse gas emissions occurred after 1940.

Next, when manmade greenhouse gas emissions soared in the post World War II industrial boom, global temperatures declined until the mid-1970s, leading to the aforementioned global cooling concerns.

The Channel 4 program notes that ongoing temperature measurements contradict global warming theory. According to the theory, lower atmosphere temperatures should be warming at a much faster rate than those at the Earth’s surface. In reality, however, just the opposite is occurring.

Then there’s the sun – the gigantic yellow ball in the sky that climate alarmists want all of us to ignore in favor of minute emissions of an invisible gas that makes up less than one-half of one percent of the Earth’s atmosphere. As it turns out, solar activity – unlike atmospheric carbon dioxide levels – correlates quite well with historic temperature changes, including through its effects on cosmic rays and clouds, as the film demonstrates quite effectively.

So why does the world seem to be caught up in the vise-like grip of a controversy that is contradicted by available scientific data and its own dubious heritage?

According to the scientists in the movie, there is an intolerance of dissent on global warming. Official government sanction of global warming opened the floodgates of funding to climate researchers, who previously worked in obscurity.

NASA scientist Roy Spencer says in the program that climate scientists need for there to be problems to get more funding. IPCC contributor John Christy says of climate scientists, “We have a vested interest in creating panic because money with then flow to climate scientists.” University of London biogeographer Philip Stott says that “If the global warming virago collapses, there will be an awful lot of people out of jobs.”

The film also debunks the IPCC claim that the 2,500 scientists contributing to its reports also support its alarmist conclusions. One key IPCC contributor for example, the Pasteur Institute’s Paul Reiter, threatened to sue the IPCC if the group didn’t remove his name from a chapter with which he disagreed.

When I met Al Gore in January 2006 after a presentation of his climate slideshow, I asked him if he'd be interested in setting up a public debate between climate scientists. He declined – twice. At this point, I’d settle for a movie face-off – “An Inconvenient Truth” vs. “The Great Global Warming Swindle.”

Let the public see both sides of the story and then we’ll see who’s believable and who’s not.


Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and CSRWatch.com. He is a junk science expert, and advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

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