Break-in period

[Brucelee]

Not to put too fine a point on it but M1 never said that it's 0W-40 oil is good for 20K miles. They tell folks to follow their manufacturer's recomendations.

Of course, that way, they are off the hook, as it is Porsche's recommendation.

It IS notable that for its PREMIUM oils, ie the ones that are more expensive than 0-40, they say you can go to 15K MAX.

Again, if you really want to drive around with oil that is OBJECTIVELY shot for say another 8K miles, hey, more power to you.

If you you don't buy my line of reasoning, spend a few bucks and send a sample of that 20K oil to Blackstone.

You may get some religion!

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

7500mi., 15k mi. or 20k mi. - it's your car and your money. No one ever hurt their engine by changing the Oil early.

But, for those in the 20k mi. Club, consider this - that Change Interval assumes Ideal Driving Conditions.

Have a K&N, S&B, True Flow or other gauze type filter (Oiled or Dry)? - Shorten the interval. Live in a dusty (include Expressway driving - terribly dusty environment) or Rural area (or travel through one)? - Shorten the interval. Commute in Stop & Go traffic? - Shorten the interval. Short drives, under 10 mi.? - Shorten the interval. Weekend only driver? - Shorten the interval. Drive fewer than 20k mi. in a year? - Shorten the interval. Live in a Hot Climate? - Shorten the interval. Live in a Mountainous or Hilly region? - Shorten the interval.

No one from Exxon-Mobil, Porsche or even AAA will dispute this. How much should you shorten the Change Interval? Well, it depends on how often or severely you encounter the conditions described above - and we're back to debating...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Sammy]

Something to keep in mind that over the years the engine design has evolved with different materials and higher quality standards. The old cast iron block and heads are a thing of the past. So much research and development has gone into using the right materials and tolerances combined with varying FEA/CAE and countless tests in dyno labs. The same thing can be said for oil. It's not the same stuff that use to come out of a can that you had to puncture the top with a fancy spout.

I will confirm that when I worked in the dynamometer lab for one of the largest auto manufacturers in the world, most of the new engines had zero problem going to 10,000 miles with non-synthetic oil. This was measured via oil analysis, consumption and various life cycle testing. Do I remember the specific data... no (got out of powertrain as quickly as I could)... but I can confirm that this was the state of oil changes 5 years ago with an OEM...

Disclaimer: When I say engine design this includes the supporting systems and not just the block and heads.

BTW - I change my oil at what I think are reasonable levels. My daily driver is changed at every 3k because I do a lot of stop and go and I use non-synthetic. My Boxster will be changed once a year. Do I need to... probably not but I sleep better at night for some reason.

[z12358]

SD987:
As I mentioned before, your theory also doesn't shed any light on why Porsche picked 20k. The marketing benefit could have been achieved by selecting 16k, or 17.5k, and yet they made it 20k. Think the marketing guys said, "hey, let's go with 20k cuz it sounds like alot"? Perhaps, perhaps not. As I said, I suspect 20k is actually understated.

They had to pick A number. My point is that the equations that they used to come up with that number have variables (marketing, etc.) that I personally don't care for. I only know that those variables will only make the recommended interval longer than what's optimal by my equation -- by how much, I don't know (unknown = risk).

Adding to this MNBoxster's list of varying driving conditions only compounds the risks and the unknowns. Some people take those risks head on and don't buy any insurance -- and many of them may come out financially ahead in the end. For me, the more frequent oil changes are cheap insurance in light of the risks we just discussed.

Z.

An oil change is a great value for the "feel good" factor! Don't you guys feel great when the oil is brand spanking new! Everything just feels better! Kinda like a car wash!! Or a fresh coat of wax. Or a.......

[GmanMD]

I misspoke earlier and I do agree that Porsche engineers are qualified. However, I do find it interesting that everyone is eager to state that the oil change interval is inordinately long but we should accept their break-in advice. Now some of you have pointed to studies that support your claim that oil is shot by 10k or so and with that, I would then agree with you. As a doctor, I am going to have to put this into medical terms: the big push today is what is called "evidence-based medicine" where your practices are in line with PROVEN practices supported by medical literature. You would be surprised how many physicians out there have certain ways of treating conditions that are not in line with the literature, but are based on 1 or 2 cases that went bad (or very good) for them in the past and they changed their practice patterns based on this. What I want to see is evidence that hard break-ins are detrimental to the engine and how they came up with the 4200rpm limit (ie. whether that be from VarioCam kick-in). I do not accept "because they say so" as these recommendations may be holdovers from years past. They have lowered the break-in period from 2k to 1k and that just may be a push towards breaking those old ideas but they cant seem to really "pull the trigger" all at once.

Just my $0.02

[ricklin]

Great Thread!!

I think the key to this discussion lies in a couple of the replies.

1. Y.M.M.V. Your mileage may vary. Oil change intervals must be adjusted according to the severity of service.

2. Everything is breaking in, not just the engine. I do believe I will do my transmission fluid as well b4 10 k comes up.

Look at the huge business's (jiffy lube et all) that uses the 3 k interval to drive their business. To me, 3k is a holdover from what, the 1940's or something. Wild guess there but that interval is pretty much BS to me.

Oil's whether they be synthetic or dino have changed and improved by orders of magnitude from the time that the 3K interval was the standard. As has engine construction. Yet somehow the old myth of 3k is still with us.

Our company cars are managed by GE Fleet Services (not the Boxster) and they still recommend a 4,000 mile interval service between oil changes. I would think GE has a LOT of data to suggest this is the best recommendation (risk vs reward). I have seen other fleet services that have a 5,000 interval. So, I don't think that Jiffy Lube is too far off, just a little more aggressive and profit motivated.

[zemmo]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Not to put too fine a point on it but M1 never said that it's 0W-40 oil is good for 20K miles. They tell folks to follow their manufacturer's recomendations.

Of course, that way, they are off the hook, as it is Porsche's recommendation.

It IS notable that for its PREMIUM oils, ie the ones that are more expensive than 0-40, they say you can go to 15K MAX.

Again, if you really want to drive around with oil that is OBJECTIVELY shot for say another 8K miles, hey, more power to you.

If you you don't buy my line of reasoning, spend a few bucks and send a sample of that 20K oil to Blackstone.

You may get some religion!

It seems to me that oil change intervals are something that nearly everyone has a fairly strong opinion on, but little data. I did at least send a sample of 9k Redline from my WRX to be analyzed, and everything was fine. I don't have those results here, but brucelee, do you remember what it was that was making the oils you mention in this post and others "shot"? Was it TBN, PH, metal contamination, or? I have always been interested in lubricants, and spent most of the last 30 years living in temps down to 60 below, in which conditions they can be critical. TIA, Alan.

PS BTW, has anyone sent any of the 20k oils in for analysis, I'd love to know the results...

[saaber]

This may be a tad off topic but does Porsche still say their coolant is a lifetime antifreeze? If so, I don't buy it, just like I don't buy Mobil 1 should go 20k miles. Additives break down and contaminants build up.

Another example from another manufacturer is Volvo says their ATF is a lifetime fluid and the only maintenance required is visual inspection. Give me a break, everyone who knows Volvos knows the documented transmission failures and they know it is important to flush the ATF. With regular flushes (at least every 50k, ideally 30k) the Volvo transmissions last a long time (speaking of Mobil 3309/Volvo 3309 ATF here).

I guess my point is don't just blindly follow the manufacturer's suggestions, take it with a grain of salt (as most of the manufacturers own mechanics probably do), and look for other advice, if you study it you may find that there are better products and better advice out there (such as in the case of the Volvo ATF needing regular flushing).

Originally Posted by saaber

This may be a tad off topic but does Porsche still say their coolant is a lifetime antifreeze? If so, I don't buy it, just like I don't buy Mobil 1 should go 20k miles. Additives break down and contaminants build up.

Another example from another manufacturer is Volvo says their ATF is a lifetime fluid and the only maintenance required is visual inspection. Give me a break, everyone who knows Volvos knows the documented transmission failures and they know it is important to flush the ATF. With regular flushes (at least every 50k, ideally 30k) the Volvo transmissions last a long time (speaking of Mobil 3309/Volvo 3309 ATF here).

I guess my point is don't just blindly follow the manufacturer's suggestions, take it with a grain of salt (as most of the manufacturers own mechanics probably do), and look for other advice, if you study it you may find that there are better products and better advice out there (such as in the case of the Volvo ATF needing regular flushing).

Saaber, most recommendations that I have read say the coolant should be changed at the 5-year mark.

[sp330]

For my Z4 I followed the 1200 mile break-in procedure religiously. There's more than just engine parts that have to get acclimated to use as someone said in this thread.

I plan on doing exactly as Porsche recommends (break-in wise), though my oil is getting changed at 7,500 namely due to my environment and driving habits.

[1JB]

I followed the break in period as well but I don't believe Porsche specifies one for their cars sold in Europe? I think there's a good argument to be made that the break in period for NA is more for the driver to get used to the car than for the car. I still manage to scare the beejeezus out of myself with this car every so often.

[saaber]

Originally Posted by bmussatti

Saaber, most recommendations that I have read say the coolant should be changed at the 5-year mark.

I would say 2 years max personally but I have also seen the 5 year rec. Here is what the Porsche website says