Break-in period

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by SD987

Well, here is a challenge. Run the oil for 20K MILES and then take a small sample and send it to Blackstone labs for analysis. I think this is a $15 charge or so.

Then report back to us. I think you will be literally amazed at what our dear Porsche engineers have been recommending.

To save you some trouble, using M1 0W-40 oil, the UOA I have seen indicate that this oil is SHOT at about 10K miles tops.

That is NOT true of Red Line oil which is likely good for 15K.

..umm, what exactly would running your test indicate? In order to be of any value, sampling would have to be done at intervals (say, every 5k), along the way. No doubt the oil degrades but is the degradation at 20k so much more versus 15k, or 10k or 5k to justify an earlier interval? At what point does the oil degradation justify changing it? I'm guessing both Porsche and the engine oil companies have run just a couple of these tests.

And your response doesn't answer the question posed by z12358. If a shorter interval was required, why wouldn't Porsche simply state that? There's nothing to gain with a shorter interval, no prestige is bestowed on a marque for having the longest oil change interval, nor is there "shame" in a shorter interval. There's only the downside of increased warranty claims, as noted by z. And there's only downside in a long interval for a company trying to sell oil. Yes, M1 wants to be known as a "long lasting oil", but that reputation could be garnered with a 10k interval.

I know you enjoy bashing Porsche on maintenance/reliability but there's little credibility in a Porsche/Oil conspiracy. If there is a conspiracy, Mercedes (my SLK interval is 13k) must be "in on it" to, then.

No conspiracy and no bashing. And my credibility is fine thanks.

Here are several quick points.

1-The point was raised above that Porsche was SOUNDLY criticized for years for the cost of routine maintainence. One way to counter that was to move the period out a bit. On things like spark plugs etc, no big deal.

However, your theory about how you are sure they tested oil quality etc. is just that, a theory. Moreover, Porsche has shown quite clearly that they are really concerned about warranty costs, not ownership costs. The "price" of using shot oil shows up later, not during the warranty period. The price is excess wear.

Re: the oil testing, frankly that has been done to death on Bob is the Oil Guy's website. The oil analysis shows things like wear metals in the oil, additives left in the oil, viscosity retention and the like. These are compared to the oil when new.

Bottom line, if you want to ride say 10K miles with oil that has basically had it, go ahead and do it.

It is scant solace indeed when your Box engine is shot and you comfort yourself that you followed those brilliant engineers recommendations.

Of course, we don't know who made these recommendations, the engineers or the finance VP.

BTW-My service tech admits off the record that the 20 K is bogus.

But hey, it is your car. Risk the 15Grand engine on basis of faith in the factory.

[Brucelee]

PS- Mobil has recently changed the formula on their Extended Protection oil such that they are not really "fully synthetic." No word on the 0W-40 oil yet but more to follow.

All the more reason to suspect the 20K deal.

[ricklin]

20 K NO WAY!!!

I've been running Mobil 1 in everything I own for at least the last ten years. I own a commercial fish boat the cost of a new engine in that would make a Boxster engine look cheap. We run Mobil 1, my partner was not a believer. I said change to Mobil 1 15-50 and just listen to the difference in the motor. He is now converted! We do oil analysis cuz it's a lot of oil. Just change the filter at the service interval. Last oil analysis we were good for another 500 hours at least.

My old Windstar 210k miles on Mobil 1 10 k changes still runs great and does not use oil. And it's the notorious 3.8 liter.

I'll change the Boxster at 7.5 K intervals and not worry about it.

SD987: I'm up in Oceanside don't get the Box down to SD much so wasn't me. I will get some good pics to post, I like the color comb. but it was my wifes good taste. I looked at a 2 tone interior boxster at Pioneer, did you buy yours off the lot? I liked the two tone a lot. We got our's in late June. I will tell the whole story here one of these days with pics.

[GmanMD]

Thanks for the advice guys. As to whether Porsche or others are more qualified to make recommendations, I will have to take all these recommendations with a grain of salt. As most people do not believe Porsche in their oil change interval, I think the same mentality may be true on soft break-ins. A lot dogma that is in place today is based on experiences from many years ago and ideas which were valid for that technology may not be true today, but is perpetuated because that is the way things were done for so many years. Also, I would like to know where the 4200rpm limit originated from and how that magical number will somehow decrease engine wear as compared to a limit of 5000rpm, or why not limit to 3800rpm to decrease wear even more? I don't claim to know what is right or wrong as to how to break an engine in, but I do think that these long-standing traditions need to be reevaluated every so often to see if they are still valid or merely relics of years long passed.

[z12358]

"As to whether Porsche or others are more qualified to make recommendations, I will have to take all these recommendations with a grain of salt. As most people do not believe Porsche in their oil change interval, I think the same mentality may be true on soft break-ins."

Porsche engineers ARE qualified. No one in their right mind would question that. What MAY be questioned are Porsche's motives behind certain recommendations. The break-in is a no brainer as Porsche doesn't gain anything by being dishonest about it. The oil change interval, on the other hand, is different as Porsche DOES gain by recommending a longer interval than the one it knows to be better for the engine. Thus, the "optimal" interval for Porsche will always be longer than the one that's optimal for me. For oil intervals, there's no question that shorter is better. So buy insurance and do it more often. You can't go wrong with that.

Z.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by z12358

"As to whether Porsche or others are more qualified to make recommendations, I will have to take all these recommendations with a grain of salt. As most people do not believe Porsche in their oil change interval, I think the same mentality may be true on soft break-ins."

Porsche engineers ARE qualified. No one in their right mind would question that. What MAY be questioned are Porsche's motives behind certain recommendations. The break-in is a no brainer as Porsche doesn't gain anything by being dishonest about it. The oil change interval, on the other hand, is different as Porsche DOES gain by recommending a longer interval than the one it knows to be better for the engine. Thus, the "optimal" interval for Porsche will always be longer than the one that's optimal for me. For oil intervals, there's no question that shorter is better. So buy insurance and do it more often. You can't go wrong with that.

Z.

I would concur with this view.

On the Oil Change issue, I know of NO OTHER can manufacturer in the WORLD that recommends 20K miles for an OCI. A few will use a oil minder and get you to 13-15K or so, but that is it to my knowledge. It is noteworthy that Mercedes is one of those makers and their record of late on longevity is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Moreover as I indicated in a previous post, other than Red Line, I have never seen a used oil analysis that provided comfort beyond say 10-11K miles.

And that was with the OLD M1 formula. The new formula provides even less comfort.

Originally Posted by GmanMD

Thanks for the advice guys. As to whether Porsche or others are more qualified to make recommendations, I will have to take all these recommendations with a grain of salt. As most people do not believe Porsche in their oil change interval, I think the same mentality may be true on soft break-ins. A lot dogma that is in place today is based on experiences from many years ago and ideas which were valid for that technology may not be true today, but is perpetuated because that is the way things were done for so many years. Also, I would like to know where the 4200rpm limit originated from and how that magical number will somehow decrease engine wear as compared to a limit of 5000rpm, or why not limit to 3800rpm to decrease wear even more? I don't claim to know what is right or wrong as to how to break an engine in, but I do think that these long-standing traditions need to be reevaluated every so often to see if they are still valid or merely relics of years long passed.

Hi GmanMD, I do not know the break-in procedure for the 986. But for the 987 the RPM recommendation is below the 4,200 range. Maybe this has something to do with the VarioCam. Even though VarioCam is active at all engine speeds and loads.

[SD987]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Actually, as I said, Porsche DOES gain by recommending a longer interval, as it lowers the perceived cost-to-own (maintenance costs) of their cars in the eyes of potential buyers, thus making them more marketable and competitive.

You were clear (but thanks for using small words), however you're overestimating the marketing benefit of the oil-change interval.

I can think of few automobile purchases more impractical than a convertible two-seater, particularly one costing 50-70k. If you were talking a family-toter perhaps, but I suspect the number of 987 buyers whose purchase decision was influenced by a 20k service interval = 0. Especially, since the majority of car buyers don't even crack open the service manual until after the purchase.

As I mentioned before, your theory also doesn't shed any light on why Porsche picked 20k. The marketing benefit could have been achieved by selecting 16k, or 17.5k, and yet they made it 20k. Think the marketing guys said, "hey, let's go with 20k cuz it sounds like alot"? Perhaps, perhaps not. As I said, I suspect 20k is actually understated.

But echoing the obvious point made by Bruce, to each his own. If you want to go with short oil change intervals because, Bob the oil can guy's website says so, or because your uncle Gus maintained his car like that and swore by it, than go for it ! It's your car, your money. If I want to believe that Porsche and Mobil one's engineers think 20k is the appropriate interval for a 3.2 liter engine with 10 quarts of synthetic oil, I fully accept the consequences. I don't think either group is going to convince the other.

[Brucelee]

Not to put too fine a point on it but M1 never said that it's 0W-40 oil is good for 20K miles. They tell folks to follow their manufacturer's recomendations.

Of course, that way, they are off the hook, as it is Porsche's recommendation.

It IS notable that for its PREMIUM oils, ie the ones that are more expensive than 0-40, they say you can go to 15K MAX.

Again, if you really want to drive around with oil that is OBJECTIVELY shot for say another 8K miles, hey, more power to you.

If you you don't buy my line of reasoning, spend a few bucks and send a sample of that 20K oil to Blackstone.

You may get some religion!

[Paul]

One thing I think that is overlooked in these discussions is the fact that our cars hold twice as much oil as US cars that recommend 5000 to 7500 mile oil changes for normal service.

Our motors are smaller than V8s, run cleaner, and have twice as much oil, so the additives last longer.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Paul

One thing I think that is overlooked in these discussions is the fact that our cars hold twice as much oil as US cars that recommend 5000 to 7500 mile oil changes for normal service.

Our motors are smaller than V8s, run cleaner, and have twice as much oil, so the additives last longer.

Yes, the sump is bigger and that does make a difference. I question why you think our motors run "cleaner"!!!. Why do you say that?

My BMW has a 7 qt sump and the mileage minder never exceeds 11K miles or so.

I am still doubting 20K and moreover, why would you risk premature wear to prove the factory correct?

[Paul]

BTW for all you 3000 mile oil change believers, do you change your brake fluid every 2 years like Porsche recommends?

[Paul]

I change my oil about once a year which is usually 9,000 to 14,000 miles. My owner's manual states 15,000 miles. My average trip in the car is always over 20 miles and includes many 500+ mile trips each year.

[Rail26]

7,500 for me...yep, the glass is half empty.

[tre_oh]

Last month I picked up an `07 Boxster. I'd driven it at one dealer and had it transfered to another dealer for the actual purchase. Being a Porsche virgin I'd been reading these forums to come up to speed on what kind of care and feeding was required. I'd read a post lamenting the fact that the Boxster manual recommended 4.2K max on the tach for the first 2K miles.

In an effort to clarify the situation, I asked both sales people what was the "dealer's recommendation" on the break-in period. "There isn't any" came spouting out of both mouths. I challenged them with the 4.2K limit and they said, "nah, that's bogus", but they couldn't provided any sound justification for their remarks.

I decided to lightfoot the puppy til I could read through the manual myself. Sure enough, my `07 manual gives the 4.2K for 2K recommendation. I'd rather be safe than sorry so I've just tried to knock out the 2K miles as fast as possible; 1710 mi and counting. It's a bit like buying a candy bar and having to carry it around with you for a month or two before you can eat it.

It's interest to see all the opinions tossed around here, it would be nice if a real Porsche tech rep could be coaxed into explaining the break-in period and the oil change interval.