Obtaining historical records

[ty_wheels]

Hello,

I am buying a 2004 boxster,
the current owner bought the car from a Porsche dealership and was told
that the engine was replaced presumably due to an IMSB failure,
but he has no supporting documentation and the Porsche Dealership involved
claims not to have records going back that far

Carfax also states that at that time the clutch assembly was replaced,
however no information about the engine replacement.

My mission is to know for certain that this car has a replacement engine.
Has anyone got any suggestions on what I could do?

[TeamOxford]

A replacement engine will have the characters "AT" (Austauschmotor) in the serial number stamped on the engine.

TO

[thstone]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

Has anyone got any suggestions on what I could do?

Without documentation, I would have to assume that it never happened.

I would either walk away or buy the car assuming that the engine was never replaced (and adjust the price accordingly).

[DoninDel]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

Carfax also states that at that time the clutch assembly was replaced,
however no information about the engine replacement.

That would seem to be your answer...

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

My mission is to know for certain that this car has a replacement engine.

I've been down this same road before involving Porsche "replacement engines". As stated earlier, a Porsche "replacement engine" will display the characters "AT" in the engine number.



You stated that the Porsche dealership "claims not to have records going back that far". Fine. I don't care what the Carfax says, to determine if the engine is indeed a Porsche "replacement engine" have the owner supply you with the engine number.

Just sayin'........

TO

[ty_wheels]

TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?

Seller found an email with items done to the car at that time,
there was a line there saying :

NV Wty Intermediate Shaft

Also managed to speak to a Porsche NA representative that confirmed that the
engine was pulled out and either they put in a reconditioned engine or reconditioned
the original engine and put it back - not sure what that means - maybe means they
replaced ims with the LNE ims ?

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?

Doubtful. Unless you are REALLY thin. You could always drive the car to an oil change joint and check it from the grease pit.

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

there was a line there saying :
NV Wty Intermediate Shaft

I don't know what this means, but I assume that "Wty" stands for "warranty".

Just sayin'...........

TO

[JayG]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?

Seller found an email with items done to the car at that time,
there was a line there saying :

NV Wty Intermediate Shaft

Also managed to speak to a Porsche NA representative that confirmed that the
engine was pulled out and either they put in a reconditioned engine or reconditioned
the original engine and put it back - not sure what that means - maybe means they
replaced ims with the LNE ims ?

the chance of a LNE replacement is between slim and none and slim left town last week

[itsnotanova]

Originally Posted by TeamOxford

I forget what style bolt head it's called, but if you see those type of bolts used throughout the motor. Then it's probably a replacement motor. it will also be free from any under body corrosion coating on the bottom. Every replacement motor I've seen was a lot cleaner than the transmission it was attached to.

[ty_wheels]

So I got under the car and verified this is a replacement engine



M96/23AT65466219


M96/23 = what is the 23 ?

6 = 6 Cylinder

5 = Engine Version

4 = what is that

66219 = Engine Serial Number

[paulofto]

From Wikipedia, I did simple search

986

1997–1999 2.5 L (2,480 cc) 204 PS (150 kW; 201 bhp) 245 N⋅m (181 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.20"
2000–2002 2.7 L (2,687 cc) 220 PS (162 kW; 217 bhp) 260 N⋅m (190 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.22"
2003–2004 2.7 L (2,687 cc) 228 PS (168 kW; 225 bhp) 260 N⋅m (190 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.23"
2000–2002 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 252 PS (185 kW; 249 bhp) 305 N⋅m (225 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.21" (Boxster S)
2003–2004 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 260 PS (191 kW; 256 bhp) 310 N⋅m (230 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.24" (Boxster S)
2004 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 265 PS (195 kW; 261 bhp) 310 N⋅m (230 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.24" (Boxster S "50 Jahre 550 Spyder")
VEHICLE ENGINE TYPE MY ENGINE NO. TECHNICAL DATA [2]

BOXSTER M96.20 97 V 65V 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,5L /150 KW
BOXSTER M96.20 98 W 65W 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,5L /150 KW
BOXSTER M96.20 99 X 65X 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,5L /150 KW

BOXSTER M96.22 00 Y 65Y 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,7L /160 KW
BOXSTER M96.22 01 1 651 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,7L /162 KW
BOXSTER M96.22 02 2 652 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,7L /162 KW
BOXSTER M96.23 03 3 653 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,7L /168 KW
BOXSTER M96.23 04 4 654 00501>60000 6ZYL/2,7L /168 KW

BOXSTER "S" M96.21 00 Y 67Y 00501>60000 6ZYL/3,2L /185 KW
BOXSTER "S" M96.21 01 1 671 00501>60000 6ZYL/3,2L /185 KW
BOXSTER "S" M96.21 02 2 672 00501>60000 6ZYL/3,2L /185 KW
BOXSTER "S" M96.24 03 3 673 00501>60000 6ZYL/3,2L /191 KW
BOXSTER "S" M96.24 04 4 674 00501>60000 6ZYL/3,2L /191 KW

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by paulofto

From Wikipedia, I did simple search

986

1997–1999 2.5 L (2,480 cc) 204 PS (150 kW; 201 bhp) 245 N⋅m (181 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.20"
2000–2002 2.7 L (2,687 cc) 220 PS (162 kW; 217 bhp) 260 N⋅m (190 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.22"
2003–2004 2.7 L (2,687 cc) 228 PS (168 kW; 225 bhp) 260 N⋅m (190 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.23"
2000–2002 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 252 PS (185 kW; 249 bhp) 305 N⋅m (225 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 "M96.21" (Boxster S)
2003–2004 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 260 PS (191 kW; 256 bhp) 310 N⋅m (230 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.24" (Boxster S)
2004 3.2 L (3,179 cc) 265 PS (195 kW; 261 bhp) 310 N⋅m (230 lbf⋅ft) water-cooled DOHC 24-valve Boxer flat-6 (VarioCam) "M96.24" (Boxster S "50 Jahre 550 Spyder")

I don't know how accurate this is, because it specs "VarioCam" on 2003 and up MY, when in reality the earlier motors have it too.

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by ty_wheels

4 = what is that

It means it's a 2004 engine.

TO

[ty_wheels]

Thanks TeamOxford,

Does this means that they replaced the original 2004 engine that failed because of the ims bearing
with another 2004 engine with the same ims bearing that could also fail ?

[bcrdukes]

I'm with JayG on this one. There is little to no chance that Porsche NA would ever put in an LN Engineering IMS in there, unless the previous owner/customer forked up the cash to do this themselves. Even that would be highly unlikely.

[rexcramer]

I know from experience that PCNA are very stingy with historical data. The problem, as I understand it, is due to privacy concerns and protecting previous owners anonymity. With out the prior owners permission, it won't be released. As for the notion they don't have 'documentation that far back' that is just plain horse feathers.

I agree with previous posts. Porsche would never use anything but OEM parts on a warranty repair. Without proper documentation, assume it didn't happen. Adjust your offer accordingly.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by rexcramer

I know from experience that PCNA are very stingy with historical data. The problem, as I understand it, is due to privacy concerns and protecting previous owners anonymity. With out the prior owners permission, it won't be released. As for the notion they don't have 'documentation that far back' that is just plain horse feathers.

I agree with previous posts. Porsche would never use anything but OEM parts on a warranty repair. Without proper documentation, assume it didn't happen. Adjust your offer accordingly.

Several years back, there was a legal case the ballooned into a class action over who actually owns and should have access to vehicle records. Basically, the outcome was that the records are the property of the vehicle owner at the time they were recorded, which means that a dealer can legitimately be taken to court for sharing the information, even after the vehicle has changed hands. That has made most dealers totally gun-shy of sharing information.

Our legal advisors require us to get written permission before we share any data, which is often difficult as people move and you cannot find them to obtain permission. Net result is that it has become easier to just say no than spend the time for which you are not going to get paid.

[Starter986]

A reasonable dealer, agent, or authority would release/reveal the service records absent any personally identifiable information.

But, nooooooooooooooooooo.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Starter986

A reasonable dealer, agent, or authority would release/reveal the service records absent any personally identifiable information.

But, nooooooooooooooooooo.

If they did, they would be in direct violation of the court ruling. The issue is not the owner's identity, it is the fact that they own the information, not the dealer.

[jcp]

This thread has been an interesting learning experience for me. Itsnotanova's post about the bolt heads used in certain engines caused me to check my engines serial number. Sure enough, it has AT in it. The car is a '99 base with 65000 on it. I am the fourth owner. I checked Carfax during the purchase and it didn't show an engine change. Since I haven't found any stray particles in the oil or filter, I'll just drive it and see if anything changes.
This site is absolutely the best for a first time Porsche owner. Thanks to everyone that has contributed to it.