IMS Bearing -- Be careful when specifying a replacement

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Seadweller

Seriously?

Only relevant compared to the 6 year 75k service life of the bearing that could have been installed

[Seadweller]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Only relevant compared to the 6 year 75k service life of the bearing that could have been installed

I'll say it again...Seriously?

6 years? That's absurd...Didn't realize that, and I have the LN IMSB installed, and most likely, not this "extended life" version, if that's what you want to call it...

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Seadweller

I'll say it again...Seriously?

6 years? That's absurd...Didn't realize that, and I have the LN IMSB installed, and most likely, not this "extended life" version, if that's what you want to call it...

Tell me why you think this service life recomendation is absurd.

[Seadweller]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Tell me why you think this service life recomendation is absurd.

I might be OK with the mileage service life, because I'll never put 50K on it...I don't understand the 5 year part...Does the ceramic dissolve after 5 years? I can't imagine having to replace the bearing every 5 years, after only putting 10K miles on the car...

[Boxtaboy]

These intervals that they put on those parts are interesting. Guess my factory original IMS on my 01 has the longer service interval IMS installed. Cool!

[JFP in PA]

OK, this needs to be put in perspective as there appears to be problems both with the shop and the owner.

The shop did not do what I would call a complete customer information session; when we get such a request, the first thing we want to make sure is that the customer knows what retrofit kits are available, and the relative advantages of each. Second, when installed, we put the exact model bearing that was used and its unique serial number on the invoice. We also never let one out the door without the door jamb sticker with the serial number. So I would say that the shop did not do everything they should have.

At the same time, however, it does not appear clear that the owner specifically asked for the single row Pro bearing. If he did, and the shop did not have the Faultless Tool, they would have had to say no to the job, or refer him elsewhere.

Blaming the outcome on LN seems mildly ridiculous.

[Boxtaboy]

Technically, I don't think the shop is in the wrong because you didn't specify you wanted a specific type of LN Bearing. If the shop knows they don't have the upgraded tooling to install the Pro model, they won't come out and tell you that option cause you only specified a LN. Is it totally honest, no- but let's be realistic...not everyone is, and they have to make money. It's like asking a dealer to use Mobil 1 to change your oil. If you don't specify 0w-40, they can fill with Mobil 5w-50 if they got that in stock for cheap, and still would've followed your orders.

Do you have a right to be upset though?- yes, but you're part to blame too for finding out the difference after the fact. The shop's job is to complete jobs, not consult you for the best option necessarily. Would it be nice if they did?...yeah

[JayG]

Originally Posted by Boxtaboy

Technically, I don't think the shop is in the wrong because you didn't specify you wanted a specific type of LN Bearing. If the shop knows they don't have the upgraded tooling to install the Pro model, they won't come out and tell you that option cause you only specified a LN. Is it totally honest, no- but let's be realistic...not everyone is, and they have to make money. It's like asking a dealer to use Mobil 1 to change your oil. If you don't specify 0w-40, they can fill with Mobil 5w-50 if they got that in stock for cheap, and still would've followed your orders.

Do you have a right to be upset though?- yes, but you're part to blame too for finding out the difference after the fact. The shop's job is to complete jobs, not consult you for the best option necessarily. Would it be nice if they did?...yeah

Bullshyt

A good shop absolutely should be recommending and discussing with you the options and what they feel is the best option for your needs

They should tell you exactly what they will be doing and what parts they will be using. Using your example of an oil change, they must ask and let you know the options and what oil they will be putting in

The ultimate decision is yours, not the shop

Case in point
I just had a torn CV boot and my mechanic gave me 3 options
1- replace the boot and rebuild the CV
2 - replace the axle with an aftermarket one
3 - replace the axle with a factory one

He gave me the costs ans well as the pros and cons of each choice and I decided on how I would spend my $$

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by JayG

Bullshyt

A good shop absolutely should be recommending and discussing with you the options and what they feel is the best option for your needs

They should tell you exactly what they will be doing and what parts they will be using. Using your example of an oil change, they must ask and let you know the options and what oil they will be putting in

The ultimate decision is yours, not the shop

Case in point
I just had a torn CV boot and my mechanic gave me 3 options
1- replace the boot and rebuild the CV
2 - replace the axle with an aftermarket one
3 - replace the axle with a factory one

He gave me the costs ans well as the pros and cons of each choice and I decided on how I would spend my $$

No, your whole assumption is that he went to a good shop. If so, then yeah, those things apply. The shop still did install a LN bearing as instructed. It just didn't act as a good shop in good faith to ask him if he wanted the pro bearing installed.

[Frank N]

If my clutch is still good at 50k, I am definitely not having enough fun.

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Frank N

If my clutch is still good at 50k, I am definitely not having enough fun.

This car is a tip

[Frank N]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

This car is a tip

ouch, then this hurts much more

[Cbonilla]

I agree that the failure is ultimately at my feet. But for a civilian I still think that I did my homework and deserved a different outcome.

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

I agree that the failure is ultimately at my feet. But for a civilian I still think that I did my homework and deserved a different outcome.

I agree, you do deserve a better outcome, especially since it appears the shop didn't even provide the door jamb sticker that they should have to evidence the installation. You picked the wrong installation shop unfortunately, it seems. Did they respond favorably to your complaint?

[mikefocke]

Every wear part has its limits. LN is specific in its recommendations on who should use their $800 part and who should consider their part that is more expensive. And a part that lasts 6 years is probably within the limits of clutch life too. So that is quite a reasonable target.

LN has produced multiple versions at multiple price points. Just like Porsche and their cars. The market dictates. Be grateful for their continued investment in your future.

And distributors have old parts in the pipeline. LN doesn't sell directly.

And shop owners have limits to their spending. Unless they are big and established and so know that they can amortize the cost of a tool upgrade over many many uses.

By all means, specify by SKU. By all means, ask what tools the shop has and instructions the shop will follow. Remember this ad: An informed shopper is our best customer.

[B6T]

Why do the ceramic bearings only have either a 50k or 75k service life?

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by B6T

Why do the ceramic bearings only have either a 50k or 75k service life?

I think LN had to draw the line somewhere-they and Flat 6 Innovations came up with an aftermarket repair for and OEM design prone to failure. Not all OEM IMSBs fail, many go well over 100,000 miles without issue. But even though the LN units are ceramic and open, they still rely on splash lubrication and nothing lasts forever.

This thread got me thinking about my own IMSB replacement. I went back to my files and saw that I discussed this with my indie back in 2014. The single row pro was about $400 more and I went with it.

CBonilla, while it sucks to find out that you got a single row replacement, I think it is still way better than OEM. Thanks for bringing this up for those who may be contemplating an IMSB replacement.

[Cbonilla]

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

I find that response difficult to process. We also have both tools, and quite plainly have never had any issues using it on any of the LN bearing styles. The Faultless Tool is just that; it is so much better than using a dead blow hammer to try and drive in a refrigerated bearing, and never ends up cocking the single row bearings. It is also the only tool that can install the Pro bearing without potentially damaging the unit. As for knowing if the lock ring on the Pro bearing is seated, that also has never been an issue as you can hear the ring click into place, and we also mark the inner shaft for the expected install depth before starting the install, so there is also a visual confirmation as well.

As mentioned earlier, given a choice, all the techs in the shop will reach for the Faultless tool over the original IMS tool kit, because it is easier, quicker, and simply does a better job every time.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

We have received a few complaints on the Faultless Tool that have been unfounded. Jake designed the tool and I made it - and it works. Just like the Faultless Wrist Pin Tool. Some shops just want the easy way out. They probably don't even have the tool or they didn't read the step by step printed manual that comes with it.

I also find interesting that they say most dealerships choose to install Porsche's own bearing. Interesting because so such option exists. In fact, dealerships were the first to buy our kits because they knew the IMS was a real problem.