2.7L vs. 2.5L?

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

When Porsche put out the 2.7L it seems like the RMS issue got better.

Are you seaious??? You got facts to back that up?
Thats the funniest thing I ever heard. Sorry to break it to you but the problem is still there even in the 987/997 models. No matter what water cooled flat-6 Porsche engine you have, you have the same chance of getting an RMS failure as any. The only 911/boxster I've ever heard of that has a less of a chance of getting a RMS failure is a tip because of the tip transmission.

[Perfectlap]

also look up the Consumer Reports evals on Boxsters through the years. Excellence magazine has a good market review for 986's noting the differences between years (even they all look the same from the outside).
I think the 2000-2002 reported the least amount of engine/drivetrain issues from
1997-2004.
As for power I've said it before, a car at this curb weight should have at least 240 HP. The car will be fine with less but it without question seems to "come alive" in the turns with the extra power. And of course for freeway merging and overtaking slower cars its very very handy. This car could easily handle another 100 HP with the steering and balance on hand.
As for resale there is no way to predict what the market will do but its a safe bet you'll get more money for the S. With the internet producing smarter and smarter buyers (like you) doing their research they'll be more informed before buying and many will know that power upgrades are very very expensive on this car. Best to get it with the most power available for each model year from the factory. It's a sports car afterall and power is not the be all and end all but its indeed relevant.
So not buying a 3.2 could cost you money. It's a strong possibility.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

... (#1) I think the 2000-2002 reported the least amount of engine/drivetrain issues from1997-2004.... (#2) As for power I've said it before, a car at this curb weight should have at least 240 HP... (#3) And of course for freeway merging and overtaking slower cars its very very handy... (#4) As for resale there is no way to predict what the market will do but its a safe bet you'll get more money for the S... (#5) So not buying a 3.2 could cost you money. It's a strong possibility.

Hi,

On point #1, where are you getting you data? There is no data which suggests this. Boxster Production peaked in these years, so there may be some merit as the workers were more in the groove . Another factor is that the older cars are just that - older. Issues quite naturally do increase as a Car ages.

Point #2, that's debatable and a matter of taste. Porsche designed the Boxster to use the 201bhp in the original 2.5l. They may have purposely emasculated it in relation to the 911, but it's still got a lot (some may say adequate) pep to it.

Point #3, just silly, the 2.5 has no trouble whatever either merging into traffic, or passing other traffic. It has a greater power/weight ratio than the 550 Spyder afterall, and no one ever accused that car of being a dog.

Point #4, true, the market is not predictable, and an S may sell for more than a base in a couple years, but you are forgetting that it also takes more to get into an S in the first place, so it's likely to be same-same in the end. I have not seen anything which suggests that the S depreciates at a lesser rate than the base.

Point #5, ???? I don't get the reasonong here at all. Unless you are going to make the car perfect and throw a blanket over it for 50 years, it's most likely that you will sell the car for less than you paid, whether it's a Base or an S. If one were to invest the difference in price of the S over the base for the number of years you owned the car, you would make some money or limit your cost of ownership, otherwise, the Car is going to cost you - the cost of having it and using it for the years owned be it an S or Base model. But, the Brake Pads, clutch and insurance will all be higher with the S, so this car could actually cost you more money than the Base.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

On point #1, where are you getting you data? There is no data which suggests this. Boxster Production peaked in these years, so there may be some merit as the workers were more in the groove . Another factor is that the older cars are just that - older. Issues quite naturally do increase as a Car ages.

Point #2, that's debatable and a matter of taste. Porsche designed the Boxster to use the 201bhp in the original 2.5l. They may have purposely emasculated it in relation to the 911, but it's still got a lot (some may say adequate) pep to it.

Point #3, just silly, the 2.5 has no trouble whatever either merging into traffic, or passing other traffic. It has a greater power/weight ratio than the 550 Spyder afterall, and no one ever accused that car of being a dog.

Point #4, true, the market is not predictable, and an S may sell for more than a base in a couple years, but you are forgetting that it also takes more to get into an S in the first place, so it's likely to be same-same in the end. I have not seen anything which suggests that the S depreciates at a lesser rate than the base.

Point #5, ???? I don't get the reasonong here at all. Unless you are going to make the car perfect and throw a blanket over it for 50 years, it's most likely that you will sell the car for less than you paid, whether it's a Base or an S. If one were to invest the difference in price of the S over the base for the number of years you owned the car, you would make some money or limit your cost of ownership, otherwise, the Car is going to cost you - the cost of having it and using it for the years owned be it an S or Base model. But, the Brake Pads, clutch and insurance will all be higher with the S, so this car could actually cost you more money than the Base.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

1-somene posted on here that the Consumer Reports folks reported that drivetrain issues were fewest with the 2.7 and 3.2's from 2000-2002. The 03 and 04 featured some redesign of the drive shaft? that's starting to report problems in increasing numbers with no real problems in this area being reported by earlier models. Before 2000 of course there were the porosity issues with the engine block on the 2.5's, tons of cases to report on that front which surely had to be a factor in redesigning the engine and introducing the 2.7 and 3.2


2-I never said the 2.5 doesn't have pep. But if you have driven both you see that though the cars may be similar in weight the seat of the pants feel very different coming out of corners and coming off braking with the substantial increase in torque from the 3.2. (why would anyone pass this up if its in their budget??)
The more power you add to the Boxster the more the excellent handling/balance is magnified well except for that moment of polar inertia when the car breaks away like no other and you're just a passenger. But no car is perfect.

3-Again no one ever said you can't adequately merge on traffic and overtkae slower cars in a 2.5 BUT if you have driven a 3.2 you will see how much easier of an effort it is, particularly higher up on the power band.

4-The Boxster market varies greatly. You might be able to get a 3.2 in one part of the country for the same amount of money that it would cost you for 2.7 (with both having the same mileage,condition etc.) in another area. If you are willing to buy with just an independent inspection report sight unseen you could get into an S for the same amount of money as a 2.7. Its not always signficantly more or more at all. Like I said this a very good time to be 986 buyer, lots of fluctuation in prices and choices by region.

5-I'ts not a given that the S depreciates at a lower rate but the rules of supply and demmand are often a factor. There are 150 Boxsters for sale on Ebay right now and only 50 of them are S models. Allot of people are locating (not always buying) through online trading sites like Ebay. You very well could end up selling to this pool or making your Boxster known to this segment of buyers who rely on the internet only. If the trend in this buying pool shifts towards more buyers wanting 3.2's and willing to pay more for an S model then obviously there will be fewer S models to choose from (and even fewer well preserved ones) and the 2.7's(in similar mileage,condition etc.) WILL have to be lowered in price to entice a potential 2nd hand buyer away from a 3.2. This lowering could be at a increasingly faster rate given the ever growing numbers of Boxsters coming off leases every day.

I did say it could not it will cost you money. Its hard to show this statiscally because no one really tracks resale values this closely. It's no different than with the Carreras. Relative to overall production of the 996, the C4S was small in production and the market is very good for that car thus its still quiet expensive to get into one. Supply and demmand. The pool of buyers for Boxsters is going to grow 10 fold as people look to get a piece of the Porsche brand for little money and a very good track record of reliability. This hasn't really happened much in the past with this brand.
There's no way to say now whether the demmand for S models will be greater but the fact that there are fewer to choose from makes it a strong possibility that like the C4S the BoxsterS will be more desireable in the 2nd hand market and a lower depreciation rate could be the result. It's as likely as it is unlikely. If I'm a buyer and can get into the rarer model for not much more money its a no brainer.

[Brucelee]

As a dealer, I would only be interested in later years S models.

It is what sells!

Just a thought!

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

1-somene posted on here that the Consumer Reports folks reported that drivetrain issues were fewest with the 2.7 and 3.2's from 2000-2002. The 03 and 04 featured some redesign of the drive shaft? that's starting to report problems in increasing numbers with no real problems in this area being reported by earlier models. Before 2000 of course there were the porosity issues with the engine block on the 2.5's, tons of cases to report on that front which surely had to be a factor in redesigning the engine and introducing the 2.7 and 3.2 ...

Someone posted here..?? That's not a very definitive arguement. Just looking at the issues posted here over the months, there were more problems reported from the '00-'03 cars than the earlier ones. To a degree, this makes some sense since there were about twice as many of these models produced. So far as the porosity issues, this has taken on a scale of Urban Myth which probably now surpasses the $50 Corvette the guy died in. I have a TSB from Porsche which shows that this was limited to exactly 136 Cars Worldwide! Give me a day to dig it up, and I can supply you with all 136 Engine/VIN numbers, so to boost your arguement with this misinformation is just wrong. The odds of finding one of those 136 Cars, and one which has not had the engine already replaced, is astronomical - it is simply not a valid reason to ignore the 2.5s.


2-I never said the 2.5 doesn't have pep. But if you have driven both you see that though the cars may be similar in weight the seat of the pants feel very different coming out of corners and coming off braking with the substantial increase in torque from the 3.2. (why would anyone pass this up if its in their budget??)
The more power you add to the Boxster the more the excellent handling/balance is magnified well except for that moment of polar inertia when the car breaks away like no other and you're just a passenger. But no car is perfect.

No, but you implied that it didn't, that somehow it was inadequate which is simply not true, and I have driven both, all 3 in fact - 2.5, 2.7, 3.2 Tip/5-speed/6-speed.

3-Again no one ever said you can't adequately merge on traffic and overtkae slower cars in a 2.5 BUT if you have driven a 3.2 you will see how much easier of an effort it is, particularly higher up on the power band.

Again, the implication was that you couldn't. Fact is, the 2.5 Boxster is faster than maybe 80% of all cars on the road, that ain't nothin'.

4-The Boxster market varies greatly. You might be able to get a 3.2 in one part of the country for the same amount of money that it would cost you for 2.7 (with both having the same mileage,condition etc.) in another area. If you are willing to buy with just an independent inspection report sight unseen you could get into an S for the same amount of money as a 2.7. Its not always signficantly more or more at all. Like I said this a very good time to be 986 buyer, lots of fluctuation in prices and choices by region.

That may be true in some rare or unique instance(s), but in general, the S will cost you more to buy and more to keep than the Base model will.

5-I'ts not a given that the S depreciates at a lower rate but the rules of supply and demmand are often a factor. There are 150 Boxsters for sale on Ebay right now and only 50 of them are S models. Allot of people are locating (not always buying) through online trading sites like Ebay. You very well could end up selling to this pool or making your Boxster known to this segment of buyers who rely on the internet only. If the trend in this buying pool shifts towards more buyers wanting 3.2's and willing to pay more for an S model then obviously there will be fewer S models to choose from (and even fewer well preserved ones) and the 2.7's(in similar mileage,condition etc.) WILL have to be lowered in price to entice a potential 2nd hand buyer away from a 3.2. This lowering could be at a increasingly faster rate given the ever growing numbers of Boxsters coming off leases every day.

Pure speculation built upon a lot of assumptions (Buts, Ifs, Coulds), maybe right, maybe wrong, but as speculation, it's not really a valid point in whether to decide between the various MY. And you fail to factor in the new competition in the used market - the Cayman S. Already several of these have been sold previously owned. They will cut into Boxster sales to some degree too.

I did say it could not it will cost you money. Its hard to show this statiscally because no one really tracks resale values this closely. It's no different than with the Carreras. Relative to overall production of the 996, the C4S was small in production and the market is very good for that car thus its still quiet expensive to get into one. Supply and demmand. The pool of buyers for Boxsters is going to grow 10 fold as people look to get a piece of the Porsche brand for little money and a very good track record of reliability. This hasn't really happened much in the past with this brand.
There's no way to say now whether the demmand for S models will be greater but the fact that there are fewer to choose from makes it a strong possibility that like the C4S the BoxsterS will be more desireable in the 2nd hand market and a lower depreciation rate could be the result. It's as likely as it is unlikely. If I'm a buyer and can get into the rarer model for not much more money its a no brainer.

Again, a lot of generality. Who says the market is growing? There's lots of competition out there - M Roadster, Z4, S2000, Sky, 350Z Convt., MX-5, Audi TT, etc. On the contrary, I believe this market is so oversaturated that it isn't expanding at all and prices are going to get softer, not firmer

Hi,

See above...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[drburton]

I would have to agree that the more recent 'S' models will hold their value better. Keep in mind there seems to be a HP escalation in the auto industry the last couple of years and many of the standard economy sedans are getting larger engines. I have to think that when someone is shopping for a 'sports car' they are not going to want to buy one with less power than a Honda Accord. That has to hurt some of the older non 'S' boxsters.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by drburton

I would have to agree that the more recent 'S' models will hold their value better. Keep in mind there seems to be a HP escalation in the auto industry the last couple of years and many of the standard economy sedans are getting larger engines. I have to think that when someone is shopping for a 'sports car' they are not going to want to buy one with less power than a Honda Accord. That has to hurt some of the older non 'S' boxsters.

Hi,

You may be correct for a certain segment of the Market. But, the essence of a True Sports Car is that they do tend to be underpowered. Traditionally, because of their nimbleness, they usually felt faster than they actually were. That fact is somewhat skewed in the US Market for a couple of reasons. First, roads in Europe (the birthplace of the Sports Car) tend to be very twisty due to natural obstacles - Hills, Mountains, Rivers and Streams as well as man-made ones - farms, towns and villages which existed long before the motorcar - too much power here can be a hindrance. Whereas in America, roads tend to be straighter with gentle curves as most towns were designed to accomodate the motorcar, so nimbleness was suplanted by horsepower.

Also, Americans traditionally had to choose between American Cars with their massive engines and power and the underpowered Euro Cars. Detroit used this power advantage with great success in their Marketing campaigns of the past 50 years and we've all become swayed by it to one degree or another. But more, or bigger, is not always better.

I reject the notion that the S is rarer. Porsche produces it in batches that their research indicates is in demand. If people wanted more, Porsche would grind them out like link-sausages. With today's manufacturing, there's nothing to prevent them doing so. Meeting Market demand is the name of the game. People have to realize that the Porsche of today is not the Porsche of yesteryear with limited production capacity and allowing quality to limit quantity - they're a Big Boy now ruled as much by their closing share price as by any vision to be the ultimate in performance.

But, there is a small segment which takes a more encompassing look at performance and doesn't zero-in on power alone. This helps to explain the Miata's popularity, though admittedly price point and other factors were also important.

I drive a 2.5, I could have bought anything I wanted, including a 911TT. I chose the 2.5 because to me, it is more representative of the traditional Sports Car. I feel the power of the S is unecessary, especially when one considers that it too cannot be termed a Giant Killer, it's still bringing up the rear in the HP wars - Porsche purposely saw to that.

There is a polarization between the S and Base model owners which is just stupid. Most people would be thrilled to own either one - we are the fortunate few. If I were swayed by what others thought, I might be inclined to want the power of the S, but I don't. Nor do I feel my Boxster is inferior to the S in any way, in fact, quite the oppsite, get in the twistys and the HP is negated to a great degree. I feel it's truer to the Sports Car philosophy, and it's the original Boxster model. I wouldn't trade my 2.5 for an S, even straight-up - I have the car I want. In fact, I will never trade-up my Boxster, I'll never own another one. If I get rid of this one, I'll buy something else - so many cars - so little time. I have owned 39 cars in my lifetime and never once bought a repeat. In contrast, my Brother has owned a VW Jetta since 1985 (4 of them) and just traded his '02 in on a new '06 - I can't even imagine.

You S owners need to appreciate that not everyone feels as you do. Nor did we settle for the Base because the S was out of reach, anyone who did made a mistake. Base or S, they both provide the Boxster experience...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Perfectlap]

"Again, a lot of generality. Who says the market is growing? There's lots of competition out there - M Roadster, Z4, S2000, Sky, 350Z Convt., MX-5, Audi TT, etc. On the contrary, I believe this market is so oversaturated that it isn't expanding at all and prices are going to get softer, not firmer"

HA! those cars are not Porsches!
seriously Most people buying the Boxster aren't familiar with the proximity in performance offered by (SOME) of the cars you listed. Most people looking at Boxsters (not the standar enthusiast type) are buying on brand name which puts Porsche in its unique position in terms of used value.
On paper the Boxster should not be as expensive as it is either new or used.
Yet people still pony up $30K for a used car that has only 250HP, while some offer that performance NEW. Why? because Porsche exists in its won little world. One that the dudes in Germany take full advantage of.

p.s.
I think you inferred that I was inferring that the 2.5 was inadequate in power. Its obviously not because I drove a 1.8 4 cylinder Miata that merged and overtook cars just muy bueno. 2.5 is more than enough for every day needs.