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Old 01-13-2016, 07:18 AM   #1
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Six Years of Blackstone Lab Oil Reports - Now Questioning Joe Gibbs

I am hesitant to start this thread. There are so many oil threads and opinions are abundant. And, passions can run hot. But.... here goes.

I completed my annual oil change of the Boxster New Years day. This is the second oil change after installing a spin on oil filter & a magnetic plug and the third oil change since switching to Joe Gibbs DT40 5W/40. I had previously used Mobil One 0W/40. I know little about oil but I noted that since switching to Joe Gibbs the Blackstone report documents that Molybdenum, Boron are almost nonexistent and the calcium is lower by about a third. Magnesium is up while zine is about the same as Mobil One 0W/40 or a tad less. Of the elements listed on the Blackstone report, I can't see any increase in any area since switching to Joe Gibbs. Perhaps there are other additives that aren't included.



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Old 01-13-2016, 07:32 AM   #2
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The big difference, if I'm remembering correctly from some of what Raby has said about JGDT40, is found in the TBN, which you have to pay extra for at Blackstone.

I look forward to the reading that this oil thread will provide as it comes with some numbers and statistics and will lead to a healthy scientific discussion.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:36 AM   #3
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I would guess that you did not submit a virgin sample of DT40, otherwise you would have observed that this product is a different animal.

The Gibbs formulation does not depend upon several of the suspension and dispersion aids that your other oil needed simply to stay together, so its balance of elementals appears different. Gibbs runs high levels of ZDDP, the best anti wear agent ever used in oils, your former oil was using different wear additive packages and much less ZDDP (if any at all), which require the dispersion aids just to stay in suspension, which is where a lot of the differences come into play.
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Old 01-13-2016, 08:52 AM   #4
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i have been using Castrol edge 10W/40 since the first day i owned my cars (thanks to the recommendation of one forum member ). im going to try 5W/40 for the first time in the next oil change, as i noticed LN is recommending this grade with the spin on oil filter.
definitely interested in this thread, and wondering if the JG has significant advantages over the Castrol.

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Old 01-13-2016, 10:54 AM   #5
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My zinc for the last few reports was:

1031 on 5/1/2014, 3,172 miles, Castrol 5W40 (previous fill Mobile 1 0W40)
1031 on 10/8/2014, 3,308 miles, DT40 (previous fill Castrol 5W40)
1240 on 4/8/2015, 2,570 miles, DT40, TBN 7.7 (paid extra that time, was curious)
1131 on 11/14/2015, 3,801 miles, DT40

If this was your 3rd oil change with DT40, the oil tested was the 2nd fill of DT40 any previous remnants of a previous fill should be gone?. Maybe the zinc gets used up more over time in addition to miles?
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Old 01-13-2016, 11:03 AM   #6
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i have been using Castrol edge 10W/40 since the firs day i owned my cars (thanks to the recommendation of one forum member ). im going to try 5W/40 for the firs time in the next oil change, as i noticed LN is recommending this grade with the spin on oil filter.
definitely interested in this thread, and wondering if the JG has significant advantages over the Castrol.
Primarily in the anti wear characteristics department. Gibbs is very high in ZDDP, much higher than just about any other full synthetic commercially available, while the Edge product (like all the others) had moved to a titanium based anti wear additive package. While the Edge remains an excellent product, Gibbs use of ZDDP rather than another metal salt anti wear additives give it a decided "edge" in protecting internal engine components from long term wear.

Castrol, like all the other majors, is under intense pressure from the OEM's to reduce or eliminate ZDDP from their formulations in order to help catalytic converters live longer (the OEM's are on the hook with the EPA to have to warranty converters for up to 80,000 miles. Zinc salts can shorten that life by irreversibly poisoning the converter media, as can other additives used in things like gas.)
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:12 PM   #7
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yes but how is your car running? queiter? Is your gas mileage the same? how does the filter compare to when you used the mass market stuff?

This oil stuff reminds me of surgery. You can't rely solely on the fluid samples taken. You have to take it altogether.
However, I'm not a doctor but I play one TV.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:22 PM   #8
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Castrol, like all the other majors, is under intense pressure from the OEM's to reduce or eliminate ZDDP from their formulations in order to help catalytic converters live longer (the OEM's are on the hook with the EPA to have to warranty converters for up to 80,000 miles. Zinc salts can shorten that life by irreversibly poisoning the converter media, as can other additives used in things like gas.)
So while DT40 helps more with metal wear in the motor, at the same time it's killing the cats faster? Would it not be more prudent to simply use a good full synthetic and be vigilant about short interval oil changes? Four cats x $xxx ea. = ouchy.
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:07 PM   #9
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So while DT40 helps more with metal wear in the motor, at the same time it's killing the cats faster? Would it not be more prudent to simply use a good full synthetic and be vigilant about short interval oil changes? Four cats x $xxx ea. = ouchy.
Exactly how much ZDDP contributes to early cat failure is a matter of conjecture. If you blow ZDDP in quantities into cats, they do become poisoned and fail; that is a matter of fact. Unfortunately, the cats also fail, in large numbers, on cars that use oil with little or no ZDDP in them, implying that there is another element at work here.

By far, the biggest contributor to cat failures is thought by many to be cheap gasoline additives, which also contain levels of metal salts. Add in the fact that your car would have to be consuming a lot of oil over a prolonged period to get to the level of ZDDP that kills the cats, some very interesting questions arise; like is it the ZDDP from the oil, or is it coming from the fuels, which are blowing burnt additives into the cats constantly? Obviously, the gas additives would answer the how cars using oil without ZDDP ended up with dead cats, but the OEM's lobbied the EPA for relief on having to replace failed cats, pointing the finger at ZDDP instead, and the EPA bought their questionable logic.

In any case, replacing your cats is far cheaper than replacing your engine; believe me, I have had to do both for customers on a regular basis. Used cats out of wrecks are readily available and actually fairly cheap. And they can be changed in a driveway with simple hand tools. Swapping out an engine is entirely another story, particularly with crate short blocks costing more than most of these cars are worth.
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:10 PM   #10
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However, I'm not a doctor but I play one TV.
Yes, but did you stay in a Holiday Inn last night?
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:18 PM   #11
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my cats went down to Costco 93 unleaded at 80K miles. I bought into all gas is the same arguments. Very expensive repair.
I only ever used Mobil one and then Castrol Edge both with little ZDDP. Then I switched to Motul Xcess and let the intervals run longer...now out of the blue I have sticky lifter giving me a fairly quiet but slightly wobbly idle (less than 1 hash mark). Moral of the story.... buy expensive oil and change it twice a year if you drive year round. Keep that oil fresh.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:08 PM   #12
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All good info - thx much - but now I'm worrying about the fuel I put in my car.

It seems to me what's needed is a "Best Practices" list for the enthusiast who wants to care for his/her vehicle over the long term. When a site gets this big (and I come from VW Vortex... ENORMOUS), it becomes easier for important information to get lost deep in the database. Just the other day I read something about putting screens in the water drains. Smart, that. From simple solutions to re-engineered pieces that fit and serve better than the factory part. I mean, one can't find such information if one doesn't know to look for it.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:39 PM   #13
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I am hesitant to start this thread. There are so many oil threads and opinions are abundant. And, passions can run hot. But.... here goes.
You are a brave, brave man! I salute you!
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:14 AM   #14
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In my opinion, DT40 is not much better than Mobil 0W40. I don't like DT40 for these main reasons:

1) zinc not any better than Mobil 0W40
2) phosphorus not any better than Mobil 0W40
3) SUS Viscosity 210 not any better than Mobil 0W40
4) cSt Viscosity 100 not any better than Mobil 0W40
5) To maximize DT40’s benefits, you need to flush with BR30 first

That's why I switch to Mobil 5W50 after running DT40 one driving season (2 oil changes). My wear metal have continued to drop since the switch.

Regardless, Chuck, your engine looks very-very healthy.
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:25 AM   #15
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First off, an annual oil service is not enough. No matter what the Mfr states, the engines that we see that live see an oil service every 6 months, despite mileage.

Secondly, you won't see benefits on your first service and sample of DT40. You may even see a UOA that's worse than you'd had before, this is especially true if you do not shorten the first service interval after swapping oils. Why? Cross pollination from what oil was left in your sump, heads, chain wells and etc that may imbalance the anti- wear and dispersant packages of the oil that you have swapped to.

Any time we change oils, especially to something with a composition of DT40 we will always do a flush oil with Joe Gibbs BR for 100 miles before going to DT40. This helps to purge the system and get a better initial result, faster.

If you don't do a flush oil you can expect to see the effects of this for a few services to follow. This is especially true since you went a whole year with the cross pollinated oil.

I have been seeing these types of effects since 2002, when we began hardcore oil development and analysis. Since 2006 we've been working with Joe Gibbs and developed DT40 together. The things I am telling you come from direct experience and carrying out almost 300 UOA last year alone.

That said, DT40 was developed around a 6 month service interval, and I mandate that the oil in my engines not go over 5,000 miles. Will the oil last longer than this? Yes! The difference is the amount of impurities that can be removed from the engine from more frequent services.

You can't expect to see benefits of the DT40 at this time, considering no flush was done, you had been running another oil for so long, and that you went twice as long on this first service. Oil isn't magical, it can't make an old engine new again, and it takes time to see the true results.

Flavor 987S, I'd like to review your UOA with Lake Speed. Please email to jake@rabyenginedevelopment.com
There's more to UOA than wear metals. If your engine is seeming to like the heavier viscosity that you swapped to, I want to see if there's a reason for that. I see some engines that follow this same trait, especially 3 chain engines, as the vane cell adjusters on the intake cams have proven to at times have internal oil volume losses, which increases the engine's desire for a heavier grade oil.

All that said, European catalytic converters are not impacted by zinc like Asian or domestic cats. I have ran oils with as much as 2750ppm Zn without issues. I don't even worry about cats at all anymore.
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Old 01-15-2016, 05:15 AM   #16
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Flavor 987S, I'd like to review your UOA with Lake Speed. Please email to jake@rabyenginedevelopment.com
There's more to UOA than wear metals. If your engine is seeming to like the heavier viscosity that you swapped to, I want to see if there's a reason for that. I see some engines that follow this same trait, especially 3 chain engines, as the vane cell adjusters on the intake cams have proven to at times have internal oil volume losses, which increases the engine's desire for a heavier grade oil.
Thanks, Jake for all that you do on this Forum and Rennlist. E-mail sent.
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:23 AM   #17
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Received and forwarded to Lake Speed.
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:14 AM   #18
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Just a few thoughts:

ZDDP won't prevent plastic from aging. Chain ramps are made of plastic.

ZDDP will always harm your catalysators. It's not a matter of the amount in the oil.

So DT 40 was designed to be changed every 6 months or less than 5 K miles. Nice cash cow.

Are there alternatives? There are ester based fully synthetic oils - for example Motul 300V - out there that can be used for 12 months and more miles that don't harm any catalysators, but have a maximum sheer stability.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-15-2016, 08:27 AM   #19
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Just a few thoughts:

ZDDP won't prevent plastic from aging. Chain ramps are made of plastic.

ZDDP will always harm your catalysators. It's not a matter of the amount in the oil.

So DT 40 was designed to be changed every 6 months or less than 5 K miles. Nice cash cow.

Are there alternatives? There are ester based fully synthetic oils - for example Motul 300V - out there that can be used for 12 months and more miles that don't harm any catalysators, but have a maximum sheer stability.

Just my 2 cents
Regards, Markus

Worn plastic wear pads on chain tensioner paddles do not often kill engines, but metal to metal wear always will.

There are several good full synthetic products out there, but none of them has an appreciable level of ZDDP in them, and ZDDP remains by far the best anti-wear additive currently available. The data implicating ZDDP's role in cat degradation appears questionable, at best. And, while shear stability is important, it is not the entire determinant is engine wear, which is why all oils carry anti wear additive packages.

So you can call it a "cash cow" if you so please, but at the end of the day you have a $20K lump in the back of your car whose life expectancy that just may be dependent upon the quality of that additive package.
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Old 01-15-2016, 08:59 AM   #20
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Modern oils are trying to systematically advertise to the world that ZDDP is not needed, and can be substituted with other anti- wear packages just as well. I believe (and so do others) that this is from an economic stand point, as Zn is a very expensive additive.

Lubrizol is one of 4 companies in the world that make additive packages for oils, its a company that Warren Buffet brought. Lubrizol doesn't just formulate the additive packages for the Joe Gibbs oils, they also make the oil. Coincidentally, Lubrizol invented ZDDP in the 1940s.

I have changed one bad catalytic converter int he past 3 years, and we see about 100 of these cars per year. The cats simply do not fail, but if anyone needs one, I have a stack of good used ones thats 4' tall with all years and models represented.

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