What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

[epapp]

I'm doing some research which could yield a smart way to evaluate IMS health (at least smarter than two pins which light up a LED when connected by metal shavings) and , real time, give you the ability to see that the bearing is failing (without looking at it!). Needless to say there are many ways. I've looked around for the part number and manufacture of the dual row IMS bearing but haven't found anything.

Ultimately I need some technical specs of the bearing and without being able to take my bearing out to test with (its my DD), I need a data sheet or two. Anybody have any information on it?

[Steve Tinker]

Porsche use many manufacturers of bearings - SKF, FAG, NSK, etc, etc, basically which ever bearing supplier won the supply contract for that year.
They can be sourced from Japan, Great Britain, Poland or the Republic of China........

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by epapp

I'm doing some research which could yield a smart way to evaluate IMS health (at least smarter than two pins which light up a LED when connected by metal shavings) and , real time, give you the ability to see that the bearing is failing (without looking at it!). Needless to say there are many ways. I've looked around for the part number and manufacture of the dual row IMS bearing but haven't found anything.

Ultimately I need some technical specs of the bearing and without being able to take my bearing out to test with (its my DD), I need a data sheet or two. Anybody have any information on it?

You are reinventing the wheel, the Guardian is simple, and works : IMS Guardian | IMS Guardian. The first advanced warning system for Intermediate Shaft (IMS) failures!

[epapp]

I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

A teaser: involves working with a tenured PHD at my school who specializes in internal combustion engine vibrations and friction surfaces in camshafts inside F1 engines.

When I solve this simple problem, I will share the wealth. Until then, I need the info on the pressure breakdown of the dual row IMSB.


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[epapp]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

Porsche use many manufacturers of bearings - SKF, FAG, NSK, etc, etc, basically which ever bearing supplier won the supply contract for that year.
They can be sourced from Japan, Great Britain, Poland or the Republic of China........

I figured it would be SKF, but does anyone have their old bearing or pictures of the old bearing? I'm trying to find a video which has a shot of the part number on the side of the OEM IMSB


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[runjmc2]

What is the rational for focusing on the dual row? The data (though suspect as always) suggests that the failure rate of the single row is much higher.

I thought I recall seeing a detailed paper on the bearing(s) used,but have not recently seen it....will look again.

Sounds like a worthy effort!

[epapp]

The reason for the dual row focus is because my car has a dual row

The solution to assessing the health of the bearing is so damn simple, and I can't believe I just thought of how to do it yesterday. Needless to say, after I brought it up to my PI (the phd engine guy), he too immediately said there is such a simple solution, and its the same idea I had. It requires math and stuff, but hey, thats why I'm in graduate school.

If you had that paper that would be most excellent. I could solve my problem if I could just pull my bearing out. (anybody got an old bearing to send to me?)

[ppbon]

... you asked for:

Dual Row bearing
NSK BD20-17
6204DUA17



Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

[MitchSF]

And here's mine, recently removed from a 2000 Boxster S.

[runjmc2]

I believe the paper I recall was from LN, but I do not currently see it on their site. A lot of information if you have not been there, also links on the same page....

IMS 101 | IMS Retrofit

[epapp]

These are excellent, thanks! Any way you could retake with better lighting so I can see all the numbers? I can see the NGK manufacture, this is a great start. Maybe you could just type the numbers you see into a response?

[epapp]

Oops, i now see the numbers! Thanks much

Originally Posted by ppbon

... you asked for:

Dual Row bearing
NSK BD20-17
6204DUA17



Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by epapp

I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

I would not be so quick or dismissive of the Guardian design; the technology has been around for decades and is in wide use on mission critical engines such as combat aircraft. The Guardian also has a rather substantial installed base, which has also demonstrated its effectiveness in spotting the onset of IMS bearing failures.

[ganseg]

subscribing! I am hoping for something that doesn't require me to pull the transmission and is less money than the Guardian. Six months till my next track day!

[Topless]

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

[epapp]

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

[JFP in PA]

It does not matter what triggers it. What the Guardian will do is alert you to the fact that there is substantial ferrous grit accumulating in the oil system; regardless of where it comes from, it is an extreme danger to the engine and requires immediate cessation of running the engine until it can be examined to find out why it was triggered. Without it, you would blindly continue to grind the Hell out of the internal components until total failure occurred. Could be an IMS issue, could be a cam or cam follower coming apart, could be a rod or main failing, or any one of a number of common failure points; but it still would be caught before it tore the engine apart, and possibly allow the engine to be saved.

[Topless]

Are we a little grouchy today epapp?? Sheesh! I sent you to that Feelyx thread in your quest for bearing #s, not because I thought he found the Holy Grail. Sheesh!



Remember the first rule of business success: People buy from sellers they like. Smile and be nice. Show appreciation when others round up data on your behalf. It works.

[epapp]

Haha, well it certainly wasn't written in a grouchy tone. More so I was miffed that a guy with all the right equipment to do a good bearing test wasn't doing it properly! (Seriously, how could anyone think that testing a bearing for 200+ days with no load would be any comparison to a M96 IMSB??)

But I just couldn't understand how the OP could gather such a following when all the effort he was putting fourth was going to waste (at least from what I saw, maybe he did add a load to the bearing later).

I also don't plan to make a living from this idea I have, but I do hope it to help many other people. Buuuut, if someone wants to send me a new coolant reservoir, you'll get the first of my IMSB health concoctions

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by epapp

I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

A teaser: involves working with a tenured PHD at my school who specializes in internal combustion engine vibrations and friction surfaces in camshafts inside F1 engines.

When I solve this simple problem, I will share the wealth. Until then, I need the info on the pressure breakdown of the dual row IMSB.


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That's just it. The IMS Guardian is really an engine guardian. If any engine sees enough ferromagnetic wear metals to initiate an Alert, those levels are indicative of some other form of failure that's imminent.

To date the IMSG has saved engines with timing chains failing, lifters failing, valve springs failing and more. All of these failures have the potential to rival IMSB failure in regard to collateral damages.

The fact that the IMSG can sense more than an IMSB failure is not a con, it's a plus. Especially when an engine has 24 other documented modes of failure other then the IMSB.

Interesting to see what you've thought of.. Considering your question in the thread here I have a pretty good idea already. You might want to carry out a patent search sooner rather than later.