What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

[ganseg]

subscribing! I am hoping for something that doesn't require me to pull the transmission and is less money than the Guardian. Six months till my next track day!

[Topless]

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

[epapp]

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

[sb01box]

[QUOTE=epapp;367111]Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.


automobile application may be different from high speed servo, but I was informed that the "grease" portion was natural or paraffin and is added to hold the oil. that oil is the lubricant.

[Jake Raby]

Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

Or its potentially Debris Oil Feeding the component, catalyzing the chances of failures.

Who knows, tons of mouse traps out there now. I remember when there were none and we had to create the first one.

Fishing lures catch more fisherman than fish.

[Bigsmoothlee]

Originally Posted by epapp

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

[epapp]

Originally Posted by Bigsmoothlee

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

Of course I do all my own work, short of mounting the tires to the rims. Although my friend claims he mounts tires with a sledge hammer and lots of pushing. Somehow it doesn't sound like thats the right thing to do with Porsche rims.

I'm not broke (but I would always do my own work before paying someone else to do it), and I have no reason to pull the transmission until next summer to put in my new clutch. If I needed to (or had signs of RMS/IMS failure) I would pull it in a heartbeat.

That being said, wouldn't an IMS bearing health solution be easy and nice if you didn't need to remove anything for it to work??

[Bigsmoothlee]

I guess, but theres no other way to monitor the health of that bearing...

Maybe theres a certain frequency when the bearing is failing that could be measured around the oil pump drive?

[Jake Raby]

If the guy has a good idea and wants to work hard to develop it and bring it to market, then more power to him. He needs to realize that the idea and making it work are really the easiest 25% of the process, the rest is what doesn't come easy.

That said the majority of my life my age worked against me in the industry. I was "fixing" mistakes made by those who were working on engines before I was born when I was a teenager. I started this company when I was 13 (literally) and ran it through the time I was in the USMC, most of the time out of my barracks room and selling parts and engines at the Pomona Swap Meet. I came home at age 22 and went full time, having to fight the old codgers that had to be proven wrong to get any respect from them.

Still today I fight that and I promised to never be one of those old bastards that stopped learning, didn't care and only thought that my time on this planet made me better or smarter than the next guy.

Anyone who decides to play this game better have strength and endurance, and be able to work while sleep depraved. They had better not care about having nights, weekends and holidays off and they better be willing to spend every single dime they have in savings and max out every credit card they own to chase the dream. If they don't, then they'd best just collect their paycheck from someone else and not sign it themselves.

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by Topless

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."

[epapp]

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by epapp

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

Then no offence mate but I call it BS. You wouldn't be one of those jealous LN Engineering competitor by any chance?!

Let me call my mates in Milton Keynes at the RedBull R&D.... I'll email you back a job application form. Quit school NOW if you already know better is my best advice.

[epapp]

Well, like I said much earlier, I have a thesis to write. This is a side project of an idea that I had, and has also been verified by a 'bearing' PhD. So YOU can call BS all you'd like, because in my spare time this project will be finished and implemented on my car.

Of course theres no data or testing happening this second, other than playing with the sensors that I plan to use, which also hasn't happened yet....When you're getting paid to get a PhD, you do the PhD work as much as you can.

Maybe in a few months I will have a POC. Then interested people can buy the IP and supply all you haters with my solution. :troll:

[WhipE350]

Young man - no one is saying you are not bright or even brilliant and may come up with a great solution...but you could learn a lot from the presentation style of smart people like Feelyx and the generosity of folks like Jake. I work with a lot of bright young people and I find their only weakness is they don't realize how important real life experience is. I try to find their strengths and nurture them along. You sir have a large ego that may make you a lot of money some day but certainly it won't make for easy conversation.

You would have received full acceptance by everyone had you not gone on the attack. There is a big difference between saying something is crap science and saying you believe it may not have been done correctly. See the key word there is 'believe'.

I already feel bad because this is the harshest I have ever been toward anybody after 1000+ posts. Carry on. We look forward to your results.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by epapp

Well, like I said much earlier, I have a thesis to write. This is a side project of an idea that I had, and has also been verified by a 'bearing' PhD. So YOU can call BS all you'd like, because in my spare time this project will be finished and implemented on my car.

Of course theres no data or testing happening this second, other than playing with the sensors that I plan to use, which also hasn't happened yet....When you're getting paid to get a PhD, you do the PhD work as much as you can.

Maybe in a few months I will have a POC. Then interested people can buy the IP and supply all you haters with my solution. :troll:

Vibration Analysis (in-angle sensor) is the only other known resource for such project but already phased out mate. Not effective. Those frequencies (or velocity decibel) of a bad bearing for instance will only occur during its later stage e.g. just before failure. Rather useless in the industry - unless triggering a kill-switch like prototyped F1 motors.

Real-time oil chemistry and property analysis is winning by far - at least it provides historical data of any sort of failures. Problem is the price of the system for an everyday end user!

We are not haters buddy I reassure you (lol), we are skeptical that's all

[stephen wilson]

I assume you're talking about vibration monitoring?

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by Topless

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."