What you think of the Z4 M? - Page 2 - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

Rail26 · 10-28-2005, 06:30 PM

Yes Adam. I'm glad somebody got that!

tmc · 10-28-2005, 08:11 PM

AUDIOGUY,

The Z4 M is not a Z4, it has a different steering rack and one that I'd expect fixes the complaints you had with the original Z4's rack (a very common complaint).

As for the doors being too high, I find the boxster doors equally high. Of course the boxster seats can be elevated up to what I'd consider to be "sedan-style" seating. One thing I like about the Z4 is you sit with your legs out straight. The boxster overall seems just too high of a seating posture for me, but I'm getting used to it.

Yes the Z4's exterior styling sucks. It's like someone put on a suit and then slept in it. There are weird creases everywhere. Cutting a giant Z into the door is weird. Kind of like "this is Zorro's car"

tmc

Biz-z Z · 10-29-2005, 11:34 AM

In my humble opinion, the box is the better of the two in styling. I have never driven a Z4 but I presume our mid-engine whip beats the Z in the handling department, hands down. However, admittedly, I covet those extra 63 horses.

All in all, two very nice sports cars, but I'll keep my 987-S thank you.

AUDIOGUY · 10-29-2005, 12:52 PM

If the steering is at all like the M3 in the new Z4M, this would greatly improve the overall dead feel of the Z4.

As far as telling someone that a Z4M is not a "Z4" good luck. I gave up on telling people my M roadster wasnt a Z3 years ago!

I will hold my final opinions on the Z4M until I have had the chance to drive one.

Have a nice weekend!

Joe
01S
Triple Black

grease · 10-29-2005, 05:04 PM

The M Roadster was much more of a sports car than the Z4 will ever be. Z4 had zero feedback through steering and felt like driving an American car. The M roadster you could do remarkable things with. too bad the interior and outside mirror location was for short folks only -I would have bought one.

tmc · 10-30-2005, 07:18 AM

I think there's some confusion in this thread. The Z4 M is not a 2.5i nor 3.0i Z4, it's a new car based on the Z4. BMW Motorsport Division (Group M) reworks BMW production models and delivers souped up versions in lower production volumes. Mercedes' equivalent is their AMG division. There is no Porsche equivalent per se, but the "S" badge (e.g., Boxster S) is roughly equivalent to M.

Group M had made an M version of the Z3, called the M Roadster. It had two Group M-designed engines over its lifetime, the S52 and the S54. The latter is the (now both famous and infamous) engine that's also in the E46 M3. It produces 333 HP from a naturally-asperated 3.2L engine (note: >100HP per liter is a Group M hallmark).

There had long been a rumor that BMW would take their 2001-released Z4 frame and have Group M rework it. But the rumors also included a pause, because the sales of the original Z3-based M Roadster were very low. BMW stated flatly "there will be no Z4-based M Roadster."

That was, until last week.

My hunch is that the Z4 M Roadster is positioned to react to the strong sales of the 05-06 Boxster S / 987S and also the successful launch of the new MB SLK AMG. The original Z4 3.0i (non-M) had performance roughly equivalent to a 986 Boxster non-S. The S version was not a high volume competitor to the Z4 3.0i in BMW's view. But again, 987S's are selling very well. Porsche hit one out of the park.

So BMW's reaction is this:
* Z4 frame
* New steering rack that, from what I can find out, is thought to be the same rack as used in the E46 M3
* Limited slip differential
* A further souped up version of the S54 engine to bring it from 333HP to 343HP
* Cosmetic changes (such as new fender flares, new domed hood, new "carbon look" interior, etc.) Honestly, I think they make the Z4 frame look very aggressive and all-in-all less ugly, but still only "less ugly"

What does this mean to Porsche drivers? Probably not much. However, if I were still in the market for a new top-performing roadster, the Z4 M Roadster would give me great pause.

tmc

Rail26 · 11-01-2005, 05:43 AM

It is still a BMW and it is still a Z4 chassis no matter what kind of engine they put in it.

By my calculations BMW + Z4 + M(badge) < My Box therefore: My Box = Wow!

I drove the Z3 and the M3 and did not like either one. I can't explain the way the Box feels, but damn man, it just feels better! You know? The difference between the P cars and the BMW/MB line is that we built our cars around the engines and suspension, we don't need to constantly shoe horn bigger and bigger engines into the cars. The other day I was smoked by a Mustang Cobra in about a 1.4 mile before a hairpin turn...However, I hit that turn without letting up the gas, flew by him and kept toolin' on down the road. He almost slid off the road.

Brucelee · 11-01-2005, 05:46 AM

No question that the Box handling is superior to a z3. Seems this also pertains to an M Roadster but I have never owned one so I can't say.

tmc · 11-01-2005, 05:57 AM

Rail26,

A Z3 was based on the E36 frame and is a completely different car at every level than a Z4, which is in turn not the same as a Z4 M Roadster. Driving a Z3 or a Z3M (Z3 M roadster) tells you nothing about the Z4 nor the Z4 M Roadster any more than driving, for example, a 993 would tell you how a 997 handles.

I drove both the Z4 and the 987S when I was in the market. The Z4 is a very capable car. It handles in some ways better than a 987S, notably better in the body rigidity category. Its steering is numb, and the run flats make going over rough road an uncontrolled experience. The new Z4 M fixes the steering. It still has run flats, so I am curious to find out if they have compensated in the suspension somehow. And it has one thing the Boxster S does not have: limited-slip differential. In my opinion, a real track car should have LSD, and I was surprised (and it gave me great pause) to discover the 987 does not even offer it.

I believe BMW can produce fine automobiles and so can Porsche. BMW's forte is more sport sedans than roadsters. But I do think Porsche will have to react to the Z4 M Roadster. My guess is they will drop the 3.4L version of the M96 engine into the Boxster S (i.e., the same engine as what's in the Cayman S). I hope Porsche considers adding LSD as an option. If they do those two things, I will trade my current 05 987S for this (hypothetical) new car in an flash (modulo major cash loss for depreciation).

tmc

ljd-924se · 11-01-2005, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmc

Rail26,

. . . In my opinion, a real track car should have LSD, and I was surprised (and it gave me great pause) to discover the 987 does not even offer it . . . I hope Porsche considers adding LSD as an option . . .

tmc

I share the same sentiment. However, I don't expect to see a factory LSD available for the boxster/cayman any time soon. Thanks to the weight distribution of the mid-engine layout, slipping the inside rear tire does not occur nearly often enough to warrant an LSD. . . at least that's what porsche seems to think. Whereas, the front-engine Z4M has much less mass holding the rear tires to the ground, and a good deal more power.

If you are willing to spend, quaiffe and guards both have LSD options available for boxsters. Quaiffe specializes in 'torsen' type LSD's that transfer power according to torque , and Guards specializes in 'clutch' type LSD's that transfer power according to relative wheel speed.

The following quote is from a thread on renntech.org by the owner of a boxster with the 'torquey-er' 3.4L 996 engine. . .
Limited Slip Differential, Performance Improvement

"Last Sunday we drove the car for the first time with the LSD and what a ride!
It was the last PCA-LPR autoX of the season with 47 drivers with around 35 cars. The results have not been posted yet but we may have run 2nd and 3rd over all with a ultra light full race 914 in first place. I can tell you there were some 911's working very hard to beat the Monster Boxster. But the real credit goes to the Quaife torque biasing differential, we accelerated faster and corner much faster.

You can view Quaife's web site:
http://www.quaifeamerica.com/

Three parts were purchased from Patrick Motorsports in Phoenix: 1. Quaife Torque Biasing Differential, 2. Side Cover, 3. Bearing. Total with shipping $1,827.51.

This is the best single mod that I have done in terms of performance improvement."

insite · 11-01-2005, 09:16 AM

the M Roadster and, to a lesser degree, the Z4, seem to have too short a wheelbase for the weight bias. they seem very twitchy to me and not nearly as confidence inspiring as a boxster. in the M Roadster, i could never shake the feeling that if i lifted off the throttle in a fast turn near the limit, it would spin in a heartbeat. the turn-in was attrociously sharp. some people may like that; i hate it.

i find the boxster, even with a similarly short wheelbase, to be so much more refined both in terms of communication and in balance. it's mid-engine layout eliminates the horrific (IMO) biased short polar moments designed into the Z's.

to me, driving is about the zigs and the zags. the boxster hangs with the best of them. at the limit, i always felt like the z's could ZIG great, but was never confident in their ability to quickly and predictably ZAG back the other way. they just don't feel right to me.

11-01-2005, 10:41 AM

Was racing against one three weeks ago on our national track
was very fast but still look bug ugly!
also M3 on track at same time, seems amazing but probably due to the fact that the driver was very good, saw the same car last weekend on wet track, was a very different story!
test drove the new M5 and this is amazing!push that booster button and waoh! it goes, but too complicated like an over programmed dishwasher, 3 set of suspension and five set of power for each setup. too much hassle!
BMWs are not bad but compare to a real racer like a 911 or a well sorted Boxster forget it.

Rail26 · 11-01-2005, 07:31 PM

TMC...you are wrong, I am right. No take-backs and infintity plus one.

roman · 11-02-2005, 11:35 AM

BMWs are not bad but compare to a real racer like a 911 or a well sorted Boxster forget it.

Such a narrow, or inexperienced mind . . .

tmc · 11-02-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roman

BMWs are not bad but compare to a real racer like a 911 or a well sorted Boxster forget it.

Such a narrow, or inexperienced mind . . .

I hear you. Some on this thread seem stuck in brand loyalty. BMW is a fine company that makes excellent performance cars. So is Porsche. The Z4 M Roadster should give competition to Porsche's Boxster S, and competition benefits all (...or we would all be driving iron-framed, 55bhp cars with solid rear axles).

Hopefully Porsche will wake up, stop trying to separate the Cayman S from the Boxster S, and update the Boxster S with the Cayman goodies to keep up with the roadster competition.

Rail26 · 11-02-2005, 03:48 PM

Fellas, what do you expect all of us to say about the Z4? We are on a Porsche website because we are all Porsche-crazy! I dream more about my car than Daisy Fuentes doing Pilates in the nude (which is a recurring dream for me). If you want to be stroked about your feelings with the Z4...go to the Z4 site.

Brand Loyalty: Yes
Think the Box can outrun the Space Shuttle: Yes
Crazy and irrational about the P car: Hell Yes.

Time to visit my car...she has been in the garage for 2 hours by herself....

Quote:

Originally Posted by roman

BMWs are not bad but compare to a real racer like a 911 or a well sorted Boxster forget it.

Such a narrow, or inexperienced mind . . .

Quote:

"BMWs are not bad but compare to a real racer like a 911 or a well sorted Boxster forget it.

Such a narrow, or inexperienced mind . . ."

Originally Posted by roman

I hear you. Some on this thread seem stuck in brand loyalty. BMW is a fine company that makes excellent performance cars. So is Porsche. The Z4 M Roadster should give competition to Porsche's Boxster S, and competition benefits all (...or we would all be driving iron-framed, 55bhp cars with solid rear axles).

Hopefully Porsche will wake up, stop trying to separate the Cayman S from the Boxster S, and update the Boxster S with the Cayman goodies to keep up with the roadster competition.

Today 13:35

SD987 · 11-02-2005, 10:40 PM

Rail26, I was wondering if you take alot of crap from your army buddies about your Box and your obsession with it?

It's my impression (maybe I've seen "Top Gun" too many times) that you pilots like to drive cars/bikes that are on the edge as well (I know there are a couple of pilot owners on here). Are there any other sports car drivers in your unit? What do they drive? Or are you the envy of all...

Brucelee · 11-03-2005, 05:51 AM

I for one think Boxster sales will be hurt if Porsche does not keep the performance increasing. There are clearly roadsters in the price range of the Boxster (Corvette, Z4, etc) that will trump it big time in horspower etc. and do quite well in the handling dept too.

If I were Porsche, I would not sacrifice the roadster just because they have a product strategy with the Cayman.

"Hopefully Porsche will wake up, stop trying to separate the Cayman S from the Boxster S, and update the Boxster S with the Cayman goodies to keep up with the roadster competition"

Dr. Kill · 11-03-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rail26

Fellas, what do you expect all of us to say about the Z4? We are on a Porsche website because we are all Porsche-crazy! I dream more about my car than Daisy Fuentes doing Pilates in the nude (which is a recurring dream for me). If you want to be stroked about your feelings with the Z4...go to the Z4 site.

Brand Loyalty: Yes
Think the Box can outrun the Space Shuttle: Yes
Crazy and irrational about the P car: Hell Yes.

Time to visit my car...she has been in the garage for 2 hours by herself....

Today 13:35

Rail26 · 11-03-2005, 03:19 PM

SD987...The only other sports car in my unit is a new Mustang GT (I use the term sports car loosely). The only crap I get is from the guys who want one. My status as a D.I.N.K (Dual Income No Kids) allows me a few more pleasures in life than my Kid toting Army breathren (and all the time I spent in Korea and Iraq).

As for the Top Gun mentality...all Hollywood brother. There are more minivans and station wagons than fast cars. I just happen to like speed and have made the decision to buy it.

Thanks for asking, I'm sure the other military and civilian pilots on this forum will agree (maybe).