Go Porsche!

[limoncello]

JD Powers Survey (CNN): "The top auto brand overall was Porsche, with a score of 908."

CNN link for whole story: http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/09/21/jdpowers_apeal/index.html

Corvettes did very well, too.

[QporscheQ]

yea, I saw this too. Whats with the Kias?

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

You are aware that JD Powers does not conduct Independent Surveys? They are contracted by Auto Companies to produce surveys strictly for Marketing purposes. I am a Founder of an Internet Marketing Firm, I know full well who JD Powers is and what they do.

Almost EVERY car has been ranked #1 by JD Powers at one time or another. They will ask the questions in such a way so as to elicit a certain response or manipulate the data until their Client is #1 so that the Client can use the survey results for Advertising purposes.

An extreme example might be: "Which would you rather own, a McLaren F1 (in which case we snip off your left testicle) or a Kia Amanti? Result: People Choose the Kia Amanti over McLaren F1 by more than 10 to 1!"

Get it????

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

PS I might actually give my left nut to own an F1...

[Rail26]

Boooo....negative vibes man, Negative vibes.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Rail26

Boooo....negative vibes man, Negative vibes.

Hi,

I can picture you now - Hands over your ears, shouting "Nah..Nah..Nah..Nah..."

Hate to shatter your illusions, but JD Powers Surveys are a SCAM! All very legal, but a SCAM nonetheless. Their data is meaningless!

They are not designed to arm the consumer to make an individual, informed, Buyer's Decision. They are designed to misinform you into making the Buyer's Decision they want.

Ever wonder how so many cars can be rated #1 by JD Powers? Next time you see them quoted in a commercial, look for the fine print on the bottom of the screen and see how narrowly defined the survey parameters were. The car in question couldn't help but be rated #1.

They are telling you Porschephiles exactly what you want to hear, but, the outcome was Pre-Determined!

Personally, I find it offensive that they think I can be so easily swayed - I can't ! JD Powers is the last place to look for any unbiased, accurate, information about ANY car!

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[wvicary]

I agree with MNboxster 100%..... that JD stuff is nothing bunch rubbish!!

[limoncello]

darn, guess I better the Kia back to the dealer...

[MNBoxster]

@limoncello

Hi,

Hey, don't take it personally. Just because JD Powers ranks a car #1 doesn't mean it isn't, but it doesn't mean that it is either.

That's the point, a JD Powers Survey or Award (they have these too) doesn't mean anything!

They are a Shill for Auto Manufacturers, so that they (Manufacturers) can quote some important sounding Survey Institute in their advertising. The Manufacturers Pay them to come up with positive results about their car(s).

In the 1970's, American cars were pretty much ******************** when compared to the Japanese and German cars of the day. It was well known in Marketing that people responded to surveys by known groups such as Consumer Reports, Gallop, etc. So, the Big Three found this small Advertising company - JD Powers. They built it up to sound very omnipitous and all-knowing. Together, they started conducting rigged surveys to use in their Advertising so they could compete with cars from overseas. It worked, sales of American cars began to rise.

Since then, JD Powers has expanded their Market to include overseas manufacturers as clients also. I can not be certain today, but in the past, JD Powers only conducted Automotive Surveys for Manufacturers, they did no other type of surveys. In fact, if you weren't an Auto Manufacturer, you couldn't even contract with JD Powers to have them do a survey.

Consumers, American ones especially, it seems, are willing to believe just about anything so long as it sounds very Official. If they didn't, JD Powers would have folded years ago.

One example was a survey done for the Toyota Corolla, it was ranked #1 of all the Japanese, 4-door sedans w/ 1.3L Engines, Front-wheel Drive having 6.8 ft³ of Trunk Space. Well, not surprisingly, the only car being sold that year which matched these exact criteria was the Toyota Corolla, it was a Race of One, no wonder the Corolla came out on top.

It is very deceiving, but as I said, totally legal. There is no law or statute which mandates how objective a survey must be. So, by manipulating the questions or in compiling the data, JD Powers always gets the answer they are being paid to come up with. Whichever manufacturer's car comes out on top in a JD Powers survey is the company which paid JD Powers to conduct the survey.

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[SoCal]

Consumer Reports 2005 Boxster best in upscale roadster category:

Thread about Consumer Reports

[Brucelee]

Pretty strong accusations.

Do you have any proof that this is occuring?

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

@limoncello

Hi,

Hey, don't take it personally. Just because JD Powers ranks a car #1 doesn't mean it isn't, but it doesn't mean that it is either.

That's the point, a JD Powers Survey or Award (they have these too) doesn't mean anything!

They are a Shill for Auto Manufacturers, so that they (Manufacturers) can quote some important sounding Survey Institute in their advertising. The Manufacturers Pay them to come up with positive results about their car(s).

In the 1970's, American cars were pretty much ******************** when compared to the Japanese and German cars of the day. It was well known in Marketing that people responded to surveys by known groups such as Consumer Reports, Gallop, etc. So, the Big Three found this small Advertising company - JD Powers. They built it up to sound very omnipitous and all-knowing. Together, they started conducting rigged surveys to use in their Advertising so they could compete with cars from overseas. It worked, sales of American cars began to rise.

Since then, JD Powers has expanded their Market to include overseas manufacturers as clients also. I can not be certain today, but in the past, JD Powers only conducted Automotive Surveys for Manufacturers, they did no other type of surveys. In fact, if you weren't an Auto Manufacturer, you couldn't even contract with JD Powers to have them do a survey.

Consumers, American ones especially, it seems, are willing to believe just about anything so long as it sounds very Official. If they didn't, JD Powers would have folded years ago.

One example was a survey done for the Toyota Corolla, it was ranked #1 of all the Japanese, 4-door sedans w/ 1.3L Engines, Front-wheel Drive having 6.8 ft³ of Trunk Space. Well, not surprisingly, the only car being sold that year which matched these exact criteria was the Toyota Corolla, it was a Race of One, no wonder the Corolla came out on top.

It is very deceiving, but as I said, totally legal. There is no law or statute which mandates how objective a survey must be. So, by manipulating the questions or in compiling the data, JD Powers always gets the answer they are being paid to come up with. Whichever manufacturer's car comes out on top in a JD Powers survey is the company which paid JD Powers to conduct the survey.

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Pretty strong accusations.

Do you have any proof that this is occuring?

Hi,

Proof of what? That JD Powers is a Marketing Company? Or that their surveys are contracted by Automakers and not Independent? These are facts and require no proof. More to the point, do you have any evidence that what I say is not true?

And, I am not accusing them of anything, just stating the facts. They're not doing anything wrong. They don't present their surveys as unbiased, if they did, then they are probably breaking the law, but they don't. One interesting thing though is how both Consumer Reports and Gallop spend a great deal of time explaining to you how the survey was conducted and the methodology used, they want you to be assured that their surveys are fair and balanced. But, JD Powers never says how the survey was conducted, they spend no effort to establish your confidence.

As I've said repeatedly, there is nothing illegal about what they are doing. There isn't even anything wrong in what they are doing, they are a Marketing Firm assisting their Client in putting the Best Face on their product to increase Sales and Market Share. They're no more guilty of wrongdoing than the Art Dept. which Airbrushes the Car Photos for the Print Ads. Do you really believe that JEEP climbed to the Top of the Mountain? That's what they want you to think, even if subliminally. Or my current favorite, the Underarm Deoderant commercial which demonstrates that Bears won't be able to smell you if you use it. I know that's why I roll it on in the morning - to ward off the Bears!

To comply with Truth In Advertising Laws, they do conduct surveys, just as they say. But, they are under no obligation legally or morally to conduct an Unbiased survey. By carefully selecting the demographic they survey and equally carefully composing the questions, they are fairly assured of achieving the outcome they're looking for. Not only that, but they are under no obligation to publish the results of the survey if it were to turn out unfavorable, or to keep conducting surveys until they get the results they want.

They are a Marketing Firm which contracts their services to Automobuile Manufacturers. Ever wonder why Automakers don't regularly use Consumer Reports or Gallop surveys in their advertising? Because they cannot be assured of the outcome. And, if they started quoting them, they'd have a precedence to keep doing it which might not always be favorable.

A quote from JD Powers own prospectus "J.D. Power and Associates is an international marketing information firm..." This is how they describe themselves. Now I doubt that Consumer Reports or Gallop describes themselves in this same manner.

No, they do nothing illegal, it is up to the Consumer to look past these kinds of Marketing gimmicks to get the facts upon which to make their Buying Decisions. It falls under the heading of Caveat Emptor.

Marketing to people is an amazing thing. All sorts of things can positively effect one's perception of a Company or Product. Why do you think Companies only use Pretty people with straight teeth and long lean bodies to represent their products? These surveys are very influential, unfortunately this probably means most of us are pretty gullible. I had this conversation once before about JD Powers and got quite a bit of resistance from people who would rather go on believing that JD Powers was the Real Deal than admit that they were duped.

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[Brucelee]

Please tell us how they bias the survey.

If they send me a survey and ask me how many problems I have had with my Lexus and I tell them 20, are you saying that they change the data and not report that? Do they rig the data so that Lexus always comes out on top?

Does Cadillac experience an improvement because they pay Powers more money?

How exactly are they misleading us when they publish their surveys? They put a list together from best to worst. How is that rigged exactly?

If they were being paid to put Lexus at the top of the heap for a decade, how come where haven't heard about this from say, Infiniti?

[SD987]

MNBoxster: While I think it's nice to see Porsche ranked as they are, I really don't feel that strongly one way or the other about what JD Powers has to say. However, it seems you have a bit of an axe to grind regarding JD Powers. Although I don't question your general expertise in your profession, in the interests of fair reporting, I though I'd clarify/refute some of your statements.

"You are aware that JD Powers does not conduct Independent Surveys? They are contracted by Auto Companies to produce surveys strictly for Marketing purposes. The Manufacturers Pay them to come up with positive results about their car(s)."

From the company's FAQs:

How can J.D. Power and Associates claim its information is unbiased when manufacturers pay for the studies?
J.D. Power and Associates syndicated studies are not funded by the companies that are measured. The studies are funded and owned by the firm. After the study results are published, manufacturers, retailers, suppliers, and other industry participants can choose whether or not to purchase the reports. Ownership of the data derived from the syndicated customer satisfaction studies is key to the firm's independence and unbiased position. This third-party perspective enables J.D. Power and Associates to provide clients with credible and clear feedback from their customers.

How do companies get approval to use J.D. Power and Associates awards?
J.D. Power and Associates has strict guidelines for advertising claims and every advertisement related to a study award is reviewed to ensure accuracy. Only top-ranked performers in pre-defined categories are allowed to license the use of J.D. Power and Associates awards in advertising.


"I can not be certain today, but in the past, JD Powers only conducted Automotive Surveys for Manufacturers, they did no other type of surveys. In fact, if you weren't an Auto Manufacturer, you couldn't even contract with JD Powers to have them do a survey."

J.D. Power and Associates conducts syndicated research in the following industries:
• Automotive
• Telecommunications
• Travel
• Real Estate
• Finance
• Marine
• Healthcare
• Utilities
• Commercial Vehicles
• Sports and Entertainment
• Retailing
• Office Products
• Professional Services


"They are a Marketing Firm which contracts their services to Automobuile Manufacturers. Ever wonder why Automakers don't regularly use Consumer Reports or Gallop surveys in their advertising? Because they cannot be assured of the outcome. And, if they started quoting them, they'd have a precedence to keep doing it which might not always be favorable."

Actually, it’s because…

The Gallup organization conducts polls on human nature and behavior, not consumer affairs. Here’s a list of their poll topics…none of which are related to automobiles.

http://poll.gallup.com/topics/

The reason why Consumer Reports aren’t quoted in automobile advertisements is stated in this following excerpt from the USA Today:

“To highlight its unbiased testing, Consumer Reports doesn't accept advertising, buys its test vehicles anonymously from car dealers and doesn't allow automakers to use its results in advertising.”

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-09-29-cr_x.htm


"They are not designed to arm the consumer to make an individual, informed, Buyer's Decision. They are designed to misinform you into making the Buyer's Decision they want."

Once again from the FAQ...

How does J.D. Power and Associates conduct research?

J.D. Power and Associates surveys actual consumers by mail, telephone, and e-mail. The firm goes to great lengths to make sure that these consumers are chosen at random and that they actually have experience with the product or company they are rating. For example, ratings for the Lexus LS 400 come from people who actually own one. As a result, J.D. Power ratings are based entirely on consumer opinions and in no way reflect the firm’s opinions or preferences.

From the medium duty truck survey, partially downloadable here:

http://www.jdpower.com/library/brochures/pdfs/Trucks/MediumDuty_Trucks.pdf

Methodology:

Study participants are selected using a national sample of VIN-identified Class 5,6 and 7 medium-duty trucks (GVW of 16,001 lbs. to 33,000 lbs.) drawn from R.L. Polk company’s registration records. Medium-duty truck principal maintainers complete a comprehensive telephone interview approximately 30 minutes in length. All survey data is weighted to reflect appropriate total industry and manufacturer market share among Owner/Operator and Fleet Managers.

They also offer as part of the full report:

- Detailed findings by manufacturer
- Detailed data tabulations
- Access to the data for each question asked in survey and VIN-decoded information.

Although just a sample, it would seem that their survey practices are above-board to me.

[slogans7]

I forwarded this thread to an old friend of mine who's been a researcher/writer at JD Powers for some time. Here's his response.


"Hahahahahahahahaha

"I’d love to know where this guy got his info. Not a lick of fact in it. The big 3 fought JD Power as a brand every chance they got, up until recently. Toyota was the company’s first client around 1968, followed by other Japanese makes. But the American companies didn’t buy any of our studies until the 80s. Even today the Big 3 are very resistant to us, although when they actually win an award from my study they love to advertise it. The import makes are much more receptive generally. Don’t know what this Toyota Corolla thing is, but that’s not a survey we ever did. "