Anyone Master Downshift Rev-Matching

[Kianfar]

I'm not too keen on the heal and toe method as I don't track this car. I just want smooth up****************s, and smooth downshifts. The closer I can get it to feeling like an automatic car, the better I feel. However, it seems like there is a lot of work involved. So far it seems like the recommended method is as follow. So example scenario coming from 5th to 4th, or 4th to 3rd.

1. Clutch in
2. Remove Gear to Neutral Position
3. Rev The engine - While clutch engaged
4. Move gear to new lower gear
5. Let clutch out

Now my only question is on step 2 to 3, when you put the gear in neutral, more than likely the RPM will drop from whatever it is to around 1500. I know this needs some speed, to not lose all the RPM say from 4000 or 3000, but is that ok?

[pothole]

Kianfar:

Heel and toe is great for the road. Do not be mistaken in thinking it's a track only technique.

I'm going to say that trying to save the synchros is overkill. For me, it's all about smooth changes and driving pleasure. It's just a nice fringe benefit that it saves the clutch if done well.

So, assuming braking is involved:

1. Lift off throttle
2. Apply brake and clutch in at roughly the same time (being sure to position your right foot on brake pedal so that you are ready to blip throttle while maintaining brake pressure)
3. select new gear
4. Blip throttle and then immediately pop the clutch out

If you're just coasting down without using the brake, or downshift for an overtake or whatever then simply change "2." to "clutch in".

Having said all that, putting this into a list is somewhat misleading - there's overlap in places and the whole thing is more of a single flowing process, if done well. Obviously at the outset you're going to nee to break down the steps. But the aim should bea nice smooth process and a gearchange where you can't feel the clutch being fed in.

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by pothole

Kianfar:

Heel and toe is great for the road. Do not be mistaken in thinking it's a track only technique.

I'm going to say that trying to save the synchros is overkill. For me, it's all about smooth changes and driving pleasure. It's just a nice fringe benefit that it saves the clutch if done well.

So, assuming braking is involved:

1. Lift off throttle
2. Apply brake and clutch in at roughly the same time (being sure to position your right foot on brake pedal so that you are ready to blip throttle while maintaining brake pressure)
3. select new gear
4. Blip throttle and then immediately pop the clutch out

If you're just coasting down without using the brake, or downshift for an overtake or whatever then simply change "2." to "clutch in".

Having said all that, putting this into a list is somewhat misleading - there's overlap in places and the whole thing is more of a single flowing process, if done well. Obviously at the outset you're going to nee to break down the steps. But the aim should bea nice smooth process and a gearchange where you can't feel the clutch being fed in.

Sorry, you are wrong. The idea behind rev matching downshifting is to save both the clutch and the gear box. Your advice will kill the gearbox.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by san rensho

Sorry, you are wrong. The idea behind rev matching downshifting is to save both the clutch and the gear box. Your advice will kill the gearbox.

Nope, rev matching is for whatever you want it to be. For me, I initially learned to do it to allow downshifts without upsetting the balance of the car. For others, they may do it purely in the name of mechanical sympathy.

Secondly, it's hysterical nonsense to say my advice will kill the gearbox. Hardly anyone does any kind of rev matching with manuals and modern gearboxes are engineered in this context. They can cope fine, as I can attest from probably a couple of hundred k of manual driving myself.

Very, very few people heel and toe according to your method. That's not to say it's wrong. If it's what you prefer, that's just dandy. But you will not destroy gearboxes in any properly engineered modern car (that includes Boxsters) by heel and toeing in the conventional method as I described. That's just twaddle.

No doubt some of the older cars in your sig appreciate rev matching as you describe, but it's just not necessary in a Box.

[Johnny Danger]

I love to rev match . I'm doing it now !

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by pothole

Nope, rev matching is for whatever you want it to be. For me, I initially learned to do it to allow downshifts without upsetting the balance of the car. For others, they may do it purely in the name of mechanical sympathy.

Secondly, it's hysterical nonsense to say my advice will kill the gearbox. Hardly anyone does any kind of rev matching with manuals and modern gearboxes are engineered in this context. They can cope fine, as I can attest from probably a couple of hundred k of manual driving myself.

Very, very few people heel and toe according to your method. That's not to say it's wrong. If it's what you prefer, that's just dandy. But you will not destroy gearboxes in any properly engineered modern car (that includes Boxsters) by heel and toeing in the conventional method as I described. That's just twaddle.

No doubt some of the older cars in your sig appreciate rev matching as you describe, but it's just not necessary in a Box.

How much more difficult is it to blip the throttle in neutral, BEFORE you engage the lower gear? And do you doubt that blipping the throttle before shifting is better for the tranny?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by san rensho

How much more difficult is it to blip the throttle in neutral, BEFORE you engage the lower gear? And do you doubt that blipping the throttle before shifting is better for the tranny?

If the goal is smooth and quick shifts, than yes that extra step does take time and smoothness away from the process. The whole point of a heel and toe when driving is to match the engine speed to transmission speed for the gear I'm moving into. The clutch must be released at the precise moment the engine reaches that speed. What you are talking about is double clutching. It is necessary in older non-syncro crash boxes to blip the throttle in neutral. Today in a modern car, it's not needed, nor will it trash a gear box, it may be easier on the syncros, but it's not necessary...nor is it a recipe for quick/smooth shifts...

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

If the goal is smooth and quick shifts, than yes that extra step does take time and smoothness away from the process. The whole point of a heel and toe when driving is to match the engine speed to transmission speed for the gear I'm moving into. The clutch must be released at the precise moment the engine reaches that speed. What you are talking about is double clutching. It is necessary in older non-syncro crash boxes to blip the throttle in neutral. Today in a modern car, it's not needed, nor will it trash a gear box, it may be easier on the syncros, but it's not necessary...nor is it a recipe for quick/smooth shifts...

I'm not recommending double clutching, my method uses the clutch just once, just blip as you are going through neutral. Its no slower than putting it in the lower gear first, then blipping, it actually faster, you are doing two things at once, blipping the throttle and moving the gear shift.

And blipping while going through neutral does save a modern synchro mesh tranny. Even with the clutch depressed, there is some drag in the clutch and blipping the throttle while in neutral will spin up the input shaft some, which means the synchro has to do less work.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by san rensho

How much more difficult is it to blip the throttle in neutral, BEFORE you engage the lower gear? And do you doubt that blipping the throttle before shifting is better for the tranny?

You guys are both right. San Rensho's method is absolutely necessary in an Alpha or any car built in Italy if you wish to avoid scattering synchros all over the road. It is completely unnecessary in a modern German car, especially a Porsche.

That said, it is of course your car and you may downshift it anyway you like.

[jb92563]

What would be the best technique for a maximum performance takeoff from a standing start.

Shifting 1-2 seems rough if you clutch at 7000rpm into 2nd gear.

Maybe I'm not clutching slow enough before engaging 2nd and the enigne is still pulling too hard when I clutch in at 6800 rpm.

Feels like I might need to let up on the gas before the shift?

no problems with the other gears.