IMS Failure - Need Advice

[linklaw]

11,000 pictures of failed IMS bearings. Wow. That is the first concrete statement I have read on any discussion forum about the number of documented failures. Assuming there were 200,000 engines built with the IMS bearing, that would mean that Jake has documentation of around a 5% failure rate and that doesn't even take into consideration the additional failures he doesn't have photos of. If a published engine failure rate of 5% doesn't obliterate the value of our cars, it is hard to imagine what would. I can't believe that with this rate of total engine failure, costing approximately $100,000,000 in damages (at a cost of approximately $10,000 per failure) that there has not been some slime bag lawyer willing to put up a couple hundred thousand dollars of his own money in expert witness fees and litigation costs to get to the bottom of this (and get really really rich). While Jake may be "the" expert on IMS failure, I am sure there are plenty of other engineers out there willing to give their opinions about the cause of IMS failure and the fact that the IMS bearing is a defective design. And when the fleabag lawyer can't/doesn't win the class action suit because the facts don't support a defective design, the engineer expert witness doesn't give his fee back. If filing and winning such a class action suit were so easy, it would have been done already and we all would have received a $20 gift certificate for a Porsche ball cap and the lawyers would have collected their millions in fees. Until then, let's continue to use derogatory terms to describe greedy attorneys and continue to praise those brave, patriotic, pioneering engineers who saw a market and chose to take advantage of it.

[coreseller]

Another thread posted by a poor chap who experienced an expensive issue simply asking for advice that has devolved into another pissing match by others.....and the beat goes on

[vijen6]

Originally Posted by coreseller

Another thread posted by a poor chap who experienced an expensive issue simply asking for advice that has devolved into another pissing match by others.....and the beat goes on

Yeah you know what .. sorry for my part in dragging this off topic OP.

[vijen6]

Originally Posted by linklaw

11,000 pictures of failed IMS bearings. Wow. That is the first concrete statement I have read on any discussion forum about the number of documented failures. Assuming there were 200,000 engines built with the IMS bearing, that would mean that Jake has documentation of around a 5% failure rate and that doesn't even take into consideration the additional failures he doesn't have photos of.

Uhmm .. I'm not following your logic .. for a single engine failure Jake could take 1-1000 pictures documenting the tear down / build up ? I don't think you can assume each picture is a unique failed IMS bearing.

[linklaw]

vijen6, sorry for the sarcasm. Jake said he had 11,000 photos of engine failures that if posted on the internet would tank the value of our cars, just like a class action suit or 60 minutes expose would, according to Jake, "obliterate" the value of our cars. It seems that every engine failure thread on a porsche forum is hyped with a "sky is falling" attitude and the inevitable posts by Jake and his vocal supporters that his "fix" is the holy grail. I don't understand why Jake's decision to take a risk, make an investment and profit from his work is regarded as admirable while attorneys who are investigating the possibility of taking Porsche to task are derided as slimy, greedy, flea bags. The last time I checked, Jake isn't doing anything for free (and shouldn't) and his work has not resulted in Porsche refunding a single dollar to anyone who bought a defective car. I recall that a class action suit involving the Allante resulted in Cadillac issuing fully assignable, transferable coupons for $7000 off the purchase of a new Caddy. BMW issued 6 year, 100,000 mile warranties on defective engines after legal action was initiated. Don't let anyone fool you. If there were grounds to file a class action, it would have been done, with or without Jake's cooperation, long ago. Likewise, if there were anywhere near 11,000 IMS bearing failures, the value of our cars would have been reduced to zero long ago and there would be broken down porsches littering our highways and the junkyards would be overflowing with them. I have been following the bearing failure issue for years as I have owned cars with affected engines continuously since 2003. As far as I can remember, no one has even determined the reason the bearings are failing. I have read much supposition and guessing but nothing concrete. If Jake knows the reason for the failures, he's not telling, and neither is anyone else.

[Jake Raby]

I have documented 23 modes of engine failure. My data base of photos is a smorgasbord of those, not just IMS failures.

We see more failures than anyone and have more interaction with these engines than anyone else- you don't call me unless you are looking for a lifeline.

[howe]

If your asking a independant professional engineer to stand up in court and prove that Porsche had a design deficency in a mechanism with about a 10% failure rate it wont ever happen.

[pothole]

Jake

I don't think anybody sane dismisses the notion that these engines have major engineering problems that lead to premature failure or that your outfit has carved out a significant niche and developed extensive expertise in repairing them (though I would think there's at least one outfit and probably two or three in the UK that would take issue with your characterisation of having a unique status as such).


However, I would suggest there's more to this than people getting upset with you for criticising the engineering of their pride and joy and wanting to stick their heads in the sand / fingers in ears.

There's also a certain level of bombasticness to your posts, extensive blowing of own trumpet and also an impression of being less than forthcoming on occasion. These are just impressions, I make no claim as to the facts.

As it happens, I also disagree that being more forthcoming about the failures would obliterate values or new sales. I doubt it would have much impact at all, personally, and I think you're teetering on the edge of delusions of grandeur, imagining that you hold Porsche second hand values or new sales in the palm of your hand.

Moreover, in my day job, I happen to have interviewed several world leading engineers (not in the automotive industry, by the by), some of whom are borderline household names thanks to their innovative work. What they all shared was a disarming modesty. They had nothing to prove. They were also very willing to entertain contrary views to their own from non experts, even on subjects on which they were probably the world's leading authority, and did so in good spirits no matter how dumb the questions put them (not doubt including my own).

I've read lots of your posts over the last couple of years of owning an M96 car and have to say some of them definitely make me uneasy.

[vijen6]

Originally Posted by linklaw

vijen6, sorry for the sarcasm.

Ahh, you were being sarcastic. Now I see what you did there ..

Originally Posted by linklaw

I don't understand why Jake's decision to take a risk, make an investment and profit from his work is regarded as admirable while attorneys who are investigating the possibility of taking Porsche to task are derided as slimy, greedy, flea bags.

To be fair, I do admire Jake's business acumen to a certain point. The difference in perception might be because Jake did succeed in creating a solution while lawyers are only in it for their hourly fees.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by linklaw

11,000 pictures of failed IMS bearings. Wow. That is the first concrete statement I have read on any discussion forum about the number of documented failures. Assuming there were 200,000 engines built with the IMS bearing, that would mean that Jake has documentation of around a 5% failure rate and that doesn't even take into consideration the additional failures he doesn't have photos of. If a published engine failure rate of 5% doesn't obliterate the value of our cars, it is hard to imagine what would. I can't believe that with this rate of total engine failure, costing approximately $100,000,000 in damages (at a cost of approximately $10,000 per failure) that there has not been some slime bag lawyer willing to put up a couple hundred thousand dollars of his own money in expert witness fees and litigation costs to get to the bottom of this (and get really really rich). While Jake may be "the" expert on IMS failure, I am sure there are plenty of other engineers out there willing to give their opinions about the cause of IMS failure and the fact that the IMS bearing is a defective design. And when the fleabag lawyer can't/doesn't win the class action suit because the facts don't support a defective design, the engineer expert witness doesn't give his fee back. If filing and winning such a class action suit were so easy, it would have been done already and we all would have received a $20 gift certificate for a Porsche ball cap and the lawyers would have collected their millions in fees. Until then, let's continue to use derogatory terms to describe greedy attorneys and continue to praise those brave, patriotic, pioneering engineers who saw a market and chose to take advantage of it.

Oh Great! another internet "fact" rumor has begun because another "intellectual" keyboard warrior is overly anxious to critisize the very people that add so much value to this forum not to mention sponsoring it. Reading comprehension is so critical to knowledge attainment. HINT: is it possible Jake Raby took more than 1 pic of each IMSB & other failures??

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Oh Great! another internet "fact" rumor has begun because another "intellectual" keyboard warrior is overly anxious to critisize the very people that add so much value to this forum not to mention sponsoring it. Reading comprehension is so critical to knowledge attainment. HINT: is it possible Jake Raby took more than 1 pic of each IMSB & other failures??

HINT: This would be a good time to come back with an "Oh, Never mind. I didn't read the rest of the thread." We're waiting patiently!

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

HINT: This would be a good time to come back with an "Oh, Never mind. I didn't read the rest of the thread." We're waiting patiently!

Unfortunately I am unable to remove the false statement of information posted by linklaw & searchable by anyone for the forseeable future.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Unfortunately I am unable to remove the false statement of information posted by linklaw & searchable by anyone for the forseeable future.

Sarcasm happens. Ya can't just refrain from it for fear that a literalist will run across it someday on the internet and get scared!

[linklaw]

BYprodriver, I was not being critical of Jake, or anyone else, with my posts. What false statement are you talking about? Here is the quote from Jake that prompted my original (sarcastic) post:

"That said the pictures of failed components on my site is less than 20, the total of my database of component pics is over 11,000.

If I wanted to obliterate these vehicles and engines I'd post every single one of them.
Want a sample? Here ya go."

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reading comprehension involved with interpreting that statement. I assumed he was referring to failed IMS bearing photos as that is the subject of this thread. Why would photos of other failed components have any relevance? Is there a photo of a failed seat belt retractor or center console lid that will tank the value of our cars? I see now that he is referring to other component failures that have caused engines to self destruct, in addition to the IMS bearing.

Howe points out that even with a 10% failure rate, one would be hard pressed to find a professional engineer to testify that the design is defective. Maybe this is the reason no class action suit has been filed? Maybe the design isn't defective but the installation of the bearing is incorrect in some engines? maybe the design of the bearing is fine, but premature seal failure causes the bearing to fail? Maybe an imbalance somewhere else in the engine causes the bearing to fail? If anyone knows the answer, I sure haven't seen it published anywhere.

[trimer]

Jake

I am a former speedster owner and have heard of you through the Soc as well. As a matter of fact there was about thirty times I picked up the phone to call you for my 1600cc motor in my vintage built speedster. Now I own one of these great cars 2002 986 with 35000 mklss and I gotta say that if I had your smarts or capabilities I would not need you. Rest assured my friend if my engine blows you WILL be getting a call from Me. Not to discuss lawsuits or anything else other than to do what you do best which is build a sweet ass motor. I don't have the money so fingers crossed but if I do you will be first on my list. I appreciate your knowledge and wisdom and all that you do to keep people moving in their rides...

Todd from Jacksonville

[Jake Raby]

There's also a certain level of bombasticness to your posts, extensive blowing of own trumpet and also an impression of being less than forthcoming on occasion. These are just impressions, I make no claim as to the facts.

There is one way to solve that.

That said, checking out of here. See ya.

[TopChuckie]

If you actually simply love Boxsters, and are simply all about driving your Boxsters, and are already fine with buying them despite the engine failure risks, then you should actually be all for the idea of the engine failures becoming well known via 60 Minutes or a class action suit, etc. and then the value of Boxsters dropping precipitously. Then when yours fails, you will be able to economically replace it. You were already willing to pay the current price for the risk, why wouldn't you rather pay less for the risk?

Few Boxster owners bought their cars as investments.

I want one but am hesitant to drop $25,000+ on one just to worry every time I turn the key may be the last. I'd feel a lot better if it only cost me $8,000. Then I could buy three and hope at least one survives for my driving pleasure.

[Uller God]

Nice angle Top Chuckie. I find it odd to read posts by those who dislike others who research and develop fixes and modifications to the 986. I'm thankful those options are available. My IMSB looked like she had little life in it, glad I'm roll'n the LN.

The Box will never be a wise Porsche investment, look into older 911s, they're out pacing the stock market 5 fold.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by linklaw

BYprodriver, I was not being critical of Jake, or anyone else, with my posts. What false statement are you talking about? Here is the quote from Jake that prompted my original (sarcastic) post:

"That said the pictures of failed components on my site is less than 20, the total of my database of component pics is over 11,000.

If I wanted to obliterate these vehicles and engines I'd post every single one of them.
Want a sample? Here ya go."

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reading comprehension involved with interpreting that statement. I assumed he was referring to failed IMS bearing photos as that is the subject of this thread. Why would photos of other failed components have any relevance? Is there a photo of a failed seat belt retractor or center console lid that will tank the value of our cars? I see now that he is referring to other component failures that have caused engines to self destruct, in addition to the IMS bearing.

...

You're correct in there not being a whole lot of reading comprehension required, but you also pointed out in your next statement that you assumed he was referring to just IMS bearings. He said the total of photos in his database of failed components is at 11,000...meaning 11,000 photos, and meaning only 11,000 photos of failed components, not specifically of failed IMS bearings, and of course certainly not meaning each is a single picture of a failure instance.

All I'm saying here is that I did not read and comprehend that statement in the same way you did to mean 11,000 pictures of just failed bearings...I'm not trying to box with you.

Maybe there aren't seat belt retractor failure pics and such, but I imagine he'd have pics of failed chain tensioners and their aftermath, and maybe something as obscure and unheard of (but not impossible) as the crappy plastic cover for the oil filter having been destroyed by some sort of road debris, causing the engine to pretty much bleed out to failure.

You're right in that the 11,000 pictures do not have as much relevance to this thread because it was a general statement about component failures in this car, I'm not debating that notion. It simply accomplishes an effect for those who will skim the writeup, see "11,000" and go Unfortunately nothing can be done to stop that.

I think by the time anybody really figured out what the heck was happening with these cars it was too little too late to bring anything against Porsche. The way I see it, if it caused the car values to tank, fine, then many more people would scoop them up, make the necessary repairs, and in the end spend the same money they would now just to buy the car, but have a bulletproofed engine...works for me.

[nefarious986]

IMO, currently the crowd the 986 ( and old porsches in general ) attract is primarily gear head / weekend driving event enthusiast / and Porsche addicts.

Now that the price of your average 986 is already way cheaper than a brand new Honda Civic! The average "bling" crowd .. meaning the soccer mom, mid life crisis doodes .. has mostly moved onto newer, "better" show off rides .. like the 987 or 997. This bling crowd is the crowd that will potentially let these IMS horror story scare them away.

Replacing them is the new crop of teen drivers who wants a 'Porsche drop top' to show off instead of buying that fiscally responsible Civic. This is the crowd that will make up their mind after perhaps glancing at ONE post out of an entire thread. If the IMS issues also scares this crowd away when I want to sell my car, honestly I'm fine with that.

The primarily gear head / weekend driving event enthusiast / and Porsche addicts crowd will be the one buying my car be able to appreciate it much more.

My 2c.