deal on Michelins

[pez]

If you were one of the many that had tickets to the USGP Michelin is offering a refund..
I know this thread got off the topic but thought this would go with the debate...

Pez

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33279

[Perfectlap]

This event makes me want to buy a set of Michelin tires. Too bad I spent $1000 on Toyo RA-1's. (just cut a side wall in the back had to buy a new one after only 1,700 miles $240).

I applaud Michelin for their decision to ensure the driver's safety. Anger directed at Michelin is misdirected. I am still appalled that a governing body would green light a race after the tire manufacuter cam out point blank and said we goofed and these tires are not safe. Yet the governing body said 'no, get in the cars and race". Utterly reprehensible decision making. A queue of cars weaving their way in 6th gear through a train of cars going significantly slower is begging for a high speed collision.
And as we saw last year at Indy when one of the driver's hit the wall, this particular racing formula is poor at quickly responding to accidents. I don't think I've ever seen a driver at Indy sit in a car that long before a medic came to his aid. Once the wreckage was cleared the officials failed to properly clear the track and a driver quickly crashed out a few laps later after running over carbon fiber. They didn't even have the sense to redirect the saftey car and the other cars through the pit lane during the caution period while the wreckage was cleared. THe cars were litteraly driving over carbon lap after lap when they could have been safely rerouted throught the pit lane.
And we are supposed to trust these guys?

Michelin did the right thing. This season brought new rules that required the teams to use only one set of tires all weekend. A ridiculus rule in motorsports. It compromises the racing as the drivers have to go easy all weekend even in qualifying which has degenerated into a marketing/advertising session. And during the races the driver's have to constantly be driving at 90% effort for fear of flat spotting. Its complete nonsense to spend $400M on two little cars and then dilute the racing.

I feel very bad for all the people who spent thousands to attend this race but don't blame Michelin entirely. This turned into a poker a match and the F1 rules makers were fully expecting the teams to be bluffing. They got a big surprise.
In this country with infinite laws, there could be no other outcome once the tire manufacturer stated that the tires were dangerous under full cornering load.
The directors of the Williams team were only recently fully exhonerated after a 10 year Italian criminal investigation into the death of one their drivers a 3X world champion. Those directors could well have been arressted and sent to prison once they stepped foot in Italy. I think we can learn something about from the Italians about being 100% behind the driver's safety.

[IceBox]

The issue doesn't revolve around whether the right decisions were made after it was revealed that the tires were unsafe. Michelin should have provided proper tires. Period. They didn't. Each team is required to bring two types of tires, their fast competitive ones and a harder compound set that, while not as competitive, are of a harder compound and will last. The Michelin teams didn't feel they needed to bring their back-up sets. Any argument for a chicane or some other 'solution' has a viable counter-argument. At the end of the day, last years Michelins worked fine. So what's the deal here? Perhaps I have a different consumer appreciation but I can't find anything laudable in Michelin's failure to be competent enough to produce a tire as good as last years', nor in the Michelin teams failure to find a way around THEIR problem. The axiom in the entertainment world is 'the show must go on!'. It didn't. No action after the announcement on saturday that they may not have useable tires is in any way worthy of applause. That an organization like F1 couldn't solve the problem on re-enforces the perception that fans are last on their list of priorities, and that while they want the U.S. bucks, they have nothing but distain for the U.S. race fan. You can bet this would not have happened at Imola or another European venue. The riot that would insue would be devastating. This is why I watch CHAMP car and ALMS/ Le Mans racing. A couple of years ago, Mercedes had three car flip ene-over-end at Le Mans, one in the race, and they did EVERYTHING under heaven and earth to be there at the starting line, to fufill their commitment to the race and the fans. They 'balled up' as the brits would say. Was it wise for them to run a car that was apparently flawed? Was it safe? Probably not. Accounting is safe. Gardening is safe. Racing is not. Kimi had to be forcibly held back by Ron Dennis and was in tears. He was redy to go. On his Michelins. By not, as a group, going out to race, the Michelin teams assured themselves that the point standings would not alter that much. Think about it. All the points leaders not running at the same time, and Minardi and Jordan posing no threat at all, the only net-net liability to the no-shows was Micheal getting a few points closer to being able to see the leaders. And it's not like the Ferrari's gonna get a lot faster as the year progresses. Consider that math before you 'applaud the teams' putting safety first. The only thing they kept safe was their point standing. Shame on F1!

[IceBox]

And Bruce, to offer a rejoinder to your question of how Indy and your Box are related at the tire level, the whole reason companies go racing is to develop products and technologies that make it to the street car. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.' In Michelin's premiere showcase event, F1, they missed a major design flaw rendering their teams cars' unsafe. How is that possible? The banked turn and straight is the signature part of the track, the reason they're there instead of Watkin's Glenn or some other "real' race track, yet that's only part the tires couln't handle. And this was missed by their very best engineers, the ones that get to design the 'sexy' race stuff. It HAS to make you wonder what their less-gifted street tire designers might not see. We all rember the Firestone SUV tires that had an alarming way of de-laminating when they were run under-pressure. And while user error was involved, these are regular people who aren't always attentive to their vehicles condition. Manufacturers take that into account when they make products for general use. So even with pit crews and telematry etc., Michelin could't provide a safe tire for use in a highly controlled environment like F1. What happens when an 'un-discovered' design flaw that seems to me should have been relatively obvious given that these tires were made specifically for Indy yet failed to incorporate side loads generated by banked turns...like you find at Indy...what happens when a flaw surfaces in street tires? Used by Joe Public, no pit crew, no strict adherance to user guidlines? Death and carnage, just like the Firestone tires. So I'll be saying 'Non' to Michelin for my cars.

[Brucelee]

I would argue that the direct connection between a Michelin decision at Indy and the tires I buy for my Box is weak at best.

In the AGGREGATE, the overall Michelin racing program MAY impact the quality of the tire on my Box but I doubt you could prove it one way or the other.

Either way, tempest in a teapot, at least to the average tire consumer, I would wager.

[limoncello]

Boy, how about that Indy thing, huh?

Back to Boxsters, for those of you who go to the track regularly, but use the same tires for street and track (not looking for those with the extra set of wheels in the garage with competition tires, even though that is indeed the right thing for the track) what street/track tires have you used, and how did you like them?
Went to TireRack's survey poll, and it looks like Bridgestone S-03s and Michelin PS2s got the highest marks (but in a variety of car types on street use). Can anybody with track experience illuminate me on a good street/track tire? Cost and wear are of interest, but tire performance is what I'm trying to uncover. thanks.

I was bummed over Indy too. I've followed F-1 for decades, including the 7 years I lived in Italy and rooted for Ferrari alongside my Italian friends. It's not a sport there; it's a passion. Hated to see this happen at THE US RACE, and hope somebody figures it out and fixes it. I'm still not sure we know "the real truth" on all that transpired. The politics and economics involved can be ugly at times. Anybody think NASCAR is clean?

Good tire stories? Anybody?
Maybe an extra set of wheels/tires IS the answer.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by limoncello

Boy, how about that Indy thing, huh?

Back to Boxsters, for those of you who go to the track regularly, but use the same tires for street and track (not looking for those with the extra set of wheels in the garage with competition tires, even though that is indeed the right thing for the track) what street/track tires have you used, and how did you like them?
Went to TireRack's survey poll, and it looks like Bridgestone S-03s and Michelin PS2s got the highest marks (but in a variety of car types on street use). Can anybody with track experience illuminate me on a good street/track tire? Cost and wear are of interest, but tire performance is what I'm trying to uncover. thanks.

.

Toyo Proxes RA-1.
I recommend them wholeheartedly for Track, Autocross and street use(yes even in the rain, excellent no hydroplaning). I can name about half a dozen other P-car drivers including instructors who have nothing but praise for this tire.
I personally did not want to change tires between track and driving home, neither do I have the space for a tire tail or hitch. An excellent track tire that is safe on the street.
They aren't cheap $240 a piece for the front (245x18) and $260 rears (275x18).
Try bobwoodmantires they have excellent pricing.

[Perfectlap]

youre absolutely right BruceLee. THis is the biggest market for all car and tire manufacturers and do you know how many of my friends asked me what happened at Indy 2 weeks ago?

ZERO.


Michelin got it wrong because there was a major overhaul of the rules this season. The parameters that were followed to build the INdy tire for the last five years changed completely. So far this season they have produced far and away the superior tire.
Bridgestone singlehandedly have completely obliterated the chances of the most well funded, well staffed team in motorsports. And the interesting bit is that its not the whole Bridgestone tire that is uncompetitive, just one aspect of it. Think about that for a second. That's how small the margin between victory and humiliation has become. To be amazed that Michelin got it wrong is really to not understand that unlike most other forms of motorsports, this is a formula that allows limitless development of cars, tires, engines, aero, and chassis etc.
Just one minor miscalculation and the result is as much as half a second disadvatage. This sport needs to get the focus back on the drivers and stop making them marginal factors.

and F1, ALMS, Champcar, MotoGP, WRC, NASCAR, IRL is not show business.
The show doesn't need to go on.
There hasn't been a fatality in open wheel racing in a couple of years now since Tony Renna died at Indy in his first practice session with a new team. Greg Moore, Gonzalo Rodriguez, Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, Earnhardt, Michele Alboreto all have died in only the last five years. I think people forget how close trajedy is at every race. So we missed a race and its a huge scandal but 14 guys are still alive with their families, despite the best efforts of this guy who runs the f1 circus.