Engine Life - how much do you gain

[Jim Miller]

I'm one of those change your oil every 3000 miles (before synthetic, 5,000 now) guys. How much engine life do you gain, 5000 vs 7500 vs 15000? Any statistics or opinons out there? Oil changes are not cheep especially when you need almost 10 qts of oil.

[pothole]

I thought there was some evidence that you could change the oil too frequently. Something to do with ingredients breaking down during initial use. Personally, I can't imagine there's much benefit from changing your oil more frequently than every 5-6,000 miles.

[stephen wilson]

IMO that's why oils are such a hotly debated subject, it's virtually impossible for the average user to quantify the gain in service life. Though I think the benefits of synthetic oils are well proven. I've run 2 cars on Mobil 1, one with oil changes @ <5K miles, and a beater @ 10K miles, both are running fine with 190K miles and the valve-trains look great. No internal engine problems. Extreme usage, or problematic engines may show different results.

[jcb986]

7,500K on oil change. Change the filter at 3500 then change oil and filter at 7,500.

[Jim Miller]

The ironic thing is rarely keep a car to the engine dies. I see people rebuilding engines with less than 100K is it the lack of oil change, defect or being run too hard?

[blue2000s]

I would love to see anyone, with any engine, show a correlation between oil change intervals and engine longevity. I have never seen such a study anywhere.

I believe any answers that you get to this question will be anecdotal at best.

[Brucelee]

Nobody knows, but most have an opinion.

[tuanle16]

Originally Posted by jcb986

7,500K on oil change. Change the filter at 3500 then change oil and filter at 7,500.

i was actually told by my mechanic the opposite. he said that you can change your oil every ___ but change your filter every other oil change.

[KevinH1990]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I would love to see anyone, with any engine, show a correlation between oil change intervals and engine longevity. I have never seen such a study anywhere.

I believe any answers that you get to this question will be anecdotal at best.

I think Consumer Reports did a study several years ago. If I recall correctly they used New York City taxi cabs. They tested a range of oils and then tore down the engines after 50,000 miles and measured the wear. I'll see if I can find the article. Memory tells me that they didn't find any extraordinary differences between oils. Fuel economy was slightly better with synthetic oil, but not enough to justify the higher price.

Having read reports of engine failures on this and other Porsche boards, I don't recall any in which the owner says they neglected oil changes. Most seem to say that they changed the oil frequently.

[Brucelee]

Used oil analysis can serve as a proxy for this. Clealry, there is an interval that is "too long." However, that is also tied to the quaility of the oil, the engine, and the kind of driving that one does.

[Jake Raby]

I'll be recording a Podcast with Lake Speed Jr. who is the director of Joe Gibbs Racing Oil, and a Certified Lubrication Specialist in about 10 days.

Lake has helped us develop "Flat 6 Oil" and we've been working closely to solve lubrication related issues with the M96 engine. These efforts include development of an oil that has a higher shear at elevated temperatures that are seen with the M96 engine "starvation" incorrectly..

One of the hotter topics Lake and I will cover is the debate over oil service intervals as he has done several studies on this topic and has shared the results with me. These results speak very clearly as to what should be done and when.

I should have the show edited and posted around Christmas... It'll be shared on Itunes and my site for direct download.

[Brucelee]

If shear is the issue, I would stick with Red Line. As a class 5 synthetic (Poly ester based) this should take care of that concern, no?

[jmatta]

Whatever Jake Raby and Charles Navarro (LN Engineering) recommend, is what I follow...I can't afford a new engine presently.

[eightsandaces]

Flat 6 oil sounds intriguing, hey I have not seen an engine cracked open in a while. I can tell you that back in the day I saw some severe sludge inside engines. I fully understand that the newer oils have different properties, however, in general more frequent oil changes including filters are the way to go. I'll be very surprised if Jake's report says different, the factory interval is too long, I've never followed it since having the car from 14K. I change the oil and filter every year which equates in my short driving climate to around 3, 300 miles. Overkill? Perhaps but if you consider how much cheaper it is for us to change the oil than someone going to the dealer it's still a huge bargain and IMO, cheap safeguard of engine longevity, especially in a car that sees Mr. Yellow line now and then.

[Jake Raby]

If it was that simple I would have just bought Redline... Which i have done in the past as a comparative and even ran it in my Wife's Land Speed 996. I'd not have 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums of test oil downstairs and a fleet of 14 test vehicles having samples pulled continuously if an over the counter solution was available. I've experienced some oils with high shear capabilities that were absolutely not suitable for street engines, some that would rust internal parts in just a couple weeks of storage.

We started working on the oil development in 2005, as soon as I noted that the temperatures were the leading cause of on-track failures we started looking for the best oils that had the ability to maintain pressure at higher temperatures. These temperatures were proving to be over 260F, even with stock engines and as high as 280F, which KILLS the oil in short order.

Through all that we have developed on a 5/40 formulation that I am testing now in my engines for a street oil and a 15/50 and 20/50 for the track engines as a full race oil that must be changed every 750 miles. The 5/40 is a custom blend made especially for the M96 street engine by Lubrizol. Its not uncommon for one 5 gallon pail of a custom test oil to cost 2K bucks, this level of development is expensive to say the least.

I'll post some data logs later from the same engine and car with two different oils applied as an "A" and "B" with no names attached to avoid the typical "controversy" related to engine oil discussions, especially here on the net. Please don't ask for names of each oil, because thats not the point I am trying to make, just illustrating the differences that two oils can make in the same engine, back to back.

As far as sludge and clean engines are concerned, well the newer oils may keep the engine cleaner through different detergency packages, but thats not necessarily a good thing. The critical balance of anti-wear and detergent packages must be maintained and the cleaner the oil runs the more difficult the balance is to attain.

The API started cracking down on dirty oils around the year 2000 when all of a sudden more people started leasing cars. Lots of these cars NEVER had the oil changed during the two year lease period and the dealers were ending up with cars back on their lots that could not be sold without engine repairs and extensive cleaning being done.

Lots of what the API does isn't done for the consumer, its for the car manufacturers and oil companies and of course, the EPA.

I haven't seen an issue with any oil creating a "sludge" condition in any engine when changed often enough.. Even good ole "Quaker Sludge" would provide a clean engine if the oil was changed frequently enough.

I will add that the oil we are developing may never be sold at a retail level to those other than our engine purchasers. I have the race oil and break in oil listed on the site now, but we are very concerned with who buys it, how it is applied and the comprehension level of the user. I have done all this development with a single focus, providing the best lubrication for the engines with MY name on them.

[eightsandaces]

I'm with ya all the way to the last sentence JR, as a 16 year veteran of Marketing at Kodak, I would advise keeping all distribution options on the table in your mind. No sense developing the golden goose then putting her on a once a month egg regimen.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

I'm with ya all the way to the last sentence JR, as a 16 year veteran of Marketing at Kodak, I would advise keeping all distribution options on the table in your mind. No sense developing the golden goose then putting her on a once a month egg regimen.

Correct, but some things are more important than sales and numbers.. The fact is there are items that are better off making up packages that are known to work as "well oiled machines" rather than being individually sold.

Everything I work with is high end, custom and application specific. First hand experience has proven to me that there are times when selling something retail can be the worst mistake made.

If it makes my engine package the best it can be, thats all I am concerned with. Oil is a critical and very controversial topic. Heck I broke my own rule by even talking about oil on a forum!

[Allen K. Littlefield]

Jake, since high temp is one of the culprits I ask the following: I already have the new thermostat but would it be wise to add a 3.2S oil cooler to my 2.7? I would have to get a new front bumper with the opening but that would be a lot cheaper than a new engine. Any buddy else have any insight?

AKL

[Jim Miller]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I'll be recording a Podcast with Lake Speed Jr. who is the director of Joe Gibbs Racing Oil, and a Certified Lubrication Specialist in about 10 days.

Lake has helped us develop "Flat 6 Oil" and we've been working closely to solve lubrication related issues with the M96 engine. These efforts include development of an oil that has a higher shear at elevated temperatures that are seen with the M96 engine "starvation" incorrectly..

One of the hotter topics Lake and I will cover is the debate over oil service intervals as he has done several studies on this topic and has shared the results with me. These results speak very clearly as to what should be done and when.

I should have the show edited and posted around Christmas... It'll be shared on Itunes and my site for direct download.

Jake, I was hoping you would weigh in. As you advised I put in Syntec 5W40 oil after my IMS replacement. You recommend changing every 5000 miles but how much will this buy me realistically for engine life verses 7500 or 15000. Any feeling. Will I get to 200K?

[clickman]

Originally Posted by Jim Miller

Jake, I was hoping you would weigh in. As you advised I put in Syntec 5W40 oil after my IMS replacement.

Time to make some popcorn.