Engine Life - how much do you gain

[eightsandaces]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Correct, but some things are more important than sales and numbers.. The fact is there are items that are better off making up packages that are known to work as "well oiled machines" rather than being individually sold.

Everything I work with is high end, custom and application specific. First hand experience has proven to me that there are times when selling something retail can be the worst mistake made.

If it makes my engine package the best it can be, thats all I am concerned with. Oil is a critical and very controversial topic. Heck I broke my own rule by even talking about oil on a forum!

I can assure you whoever is going to private label this for you has a different perspective on how much needs to be sold to make the deal solvent.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

I can assure you whoever is going to private label this for you has a different perspective on how much needs to be sold to make the deal solvent.

They don't care.. As part of our partnership I am giving them critical information that they couldn't attain any other way. They've known from day one what my full intent was and they are fine with that.

"They" are Joe Gibbs Racing, they have their own line of oils and while our volume with the specialty oils helps the cause, its not going to break their bank or add to their bottom line.

"They" saw what Charles and I had done beginning in 2005 and THEY called US. What they want doesn't make an impact on what I do, or my engines because its my engine program and I created every aspect of it from scratch.

Here I don't care about the bottom line nearly as much as the "red line" thats on the tachometer.

Today's World may be money driven and full of marketing bliss, but none of that matters atop this hill in the North Georgia Mountains where everything is paid off and we only sell what we want to sell and what works. Heck, time means so little to us that we don't even have a clock in the facility, we do most every job with package prices no matter how long it takes.. I don't care for the BS that high volumes creates and dealing with enormous amounts of people where I lose my personal contact with each and every purchaser.

Fact is I can build a million dollar engine and it can fail on the track because the oil that protects it fails, causes pressure losses and complete engine loss. When that happens the oil doesn't get the finger and doesn't have to deal with the failure fallout- I do and no one listens to explanations or excuses that the oil killed the engine. With all of our updated engines making a minimum of 30HP more than factory most are used for some sort of track duty, so we must understand what takes these engines out on the track and ensure that doesn't happen to our engine. Thats the reason why I've only experienced one on track engine failure which occurred when the oil pump drive key snapped in half, a part that we have since updated with a billet unit.

Development of this oil is just like the development of any other engine component thats upgraded, its part of the engine combination that starts at the inlet of the engine and extends to the tail pipe exit encompassing every component in between.

My view on this was the fact that we've upgraded the entire engine, so why not update the oil with an application specific product? The oil development is simply required, no matter the cost. When we gathered the data that showed just how hot the oil was getting and what the pressures were doing, the root source of the issue was clear and we started working toward reducing oil temps and developing an oil that would live at 260-270F and maintain pressure.

The oil may be available someday, but only after the time has come. I'd rather say that it won't be available than have 1,000 people calling to ask about it weekly when we don't currently wish to sell it. Development takes time and I won't sell ANYTHING until we fully understand every aspect of it. I did the same things with updated engines, we didn't sell one for the first 4 years we were doing the development work, my aircooled side of the house paid the bills and paid for the development. When our engine hit the market in 2007 it was already fully developed, understood and proven- we don't use the purchaser as our developmental Guinea Pig~

Development of the perfect oil for the M96 engine is ongoing and will be for quite some time. Every time we find a better oil, another "secret sauce" gets shipped to us in an unmarked 5 gallon pail and kicks the ass off the last thing we tested..

Jake, I was hoping you would weigh in. As you advised I put in Syntec 5W40 oil after my IMS replacement. You recommend changing every 5000 miles but how much will this buy me realistically for engine life verses 7500 or 15000. Any feeling. Will I get to 200K?

Actually I don't ever recommend oils.. Never have and never will. No matter what oil is used its impossible here in the real world to estimate the life an engine will live. Engines are mechanical and nothing mechanical can be forecasted. The only thing is for sure is engines are just like Humans, they all have an expiration date and we never know what that date truly is.

Change the oil every 5K miles, use the oil that you want and take your chances. Thats all that can be done. Do everything in the world, service the engine once a week and you can still roll into the Flat 6 compound on the back of a multi- car hauler as a statistic. Two arrived today, but one is getting a brand new 3.6 even though the current 3.2 runs perfectly- he wanted more power and confidence. The other one was DOA, lost an IMS and now he is in line for a July 2011 delivery of a new 3.8 from FSI.

Got Luck?

[JTP]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

We started working on the oil development in 2005, as soon as I noted that the temperatures were the leading cause of on-track failures we started looking for the best oils that had the ability to maintain pressure at higher temperatures. These temperatures were proving to be over 260F, even with stock engines and as high as 280F, which KILLS the oil in short order.[/B]

For a street car, would driving at 80-90 mph for 7-9 hrs cause internal temps to come close to those temps? Or would it require the abuse of track use to reach those elevated temps? I always monitor my coolant temp but have no idea what my oil temp is at during my interstate drives.
I've been chaning my oil every 5k miles and I reach that in two to three months.

[eightsandaces]

Well trust me Jake, I may have surfed the fortune 100 wave but their ways are not mine. I thought if you were using a major oil manufacturer to formulate this they would certainly have a stake in production, I was wrong. As for "the way of the Jake", I don't have an equivalent shop or the physical ability anymore, otherwise I'd be in the front chair of those training classes. I can assure you that up here in NY, where the glaciers cut the lakes, much of the sentiment you typed is kindred. What repairs I can still effect physically, I plan out like surgery. My priority in repair is excellence. I used to live on Jimmy Carter Blvd, it looks a lot like central NY there, we just have better natural water resources, you on the other hand get a nice long summer with phenomenally powerful lightning storms.

[Jim Miller]

Understood, can't predict in individual cases but was hoping someone would make me feel better about changing oil at 5000 miles and its payoff.

Anyone have statistics on the typical life of a 2.5 L engine?

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Jim Miller

Understood, can't predict in individual cases but was hoping someone would make me feel better about changing oil at 5000 miles and its payoff.

Anyone have statistics on the typical life of a 2.5 L engine?

My impression is that the 2.5 lump is pretty sound by the standards of the M96 engine. There are quite a few known issues - porous blocks, liner failures etc. However, I believe these issues shake out pretty early on in terms of mileage. If your car is 50k+ on the clock, I think the risk of these issues cropping up is much reduced. The 2.5 also has the double-row IMS bearing, and I *think* doesn't score too highly in terms of bearing failure compared to other M96 lumps.

From reading around and looking at the mileage on cars for sale, etc, my anecdotal impression is that 150k isn't an unreasonable expectation for most well maintained 2.5s, especially if the thing has already done, say, 70k and is running well. I still think they can fail at any mileage. But if you've made it half way to 150k, I think it's much more likely than not you'll make the other half without catastrophic failure.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jim Miller

Understood, can't predict in individual cases but was hoping someone would make me feel better about changing oil at 5000 miles and its payoff.

Anyone have statistics on the typical life of a 2.5 L engine?

Trust me.. Its not a bad thing.

Ever thought about all the contaminants the oil is susceptible to? Coolant intrusion, fuel intrusion, condensation are just a few that need to be purged from the engine at an oil service. Seeing what we gather from UOA and what I noted while using an Intellistick device in one of our test cars, even 5K is pushing it for the oil in these engines.

Well trust me Jake, I may have surfed the fortune 100 wave but their ways are not mine. I thought if you were using a major oil manufacturer to formulate this they would certainly have a stake in production, I was wrong.

I don't care anything about a Fortune 100 Company.. As long as I can work on the property where I grew up, take an afternoon off to go fishing at our on site Pond or go Hunting out in the woods below the shop I am perfectly happy..

These oils are low production runs, made in batches of less than 500 gallons, or in some instances only 5 gallons. Due to this the volume isn't that critical and dealing with a company like Gibbs who has 400+ employees all dedicated to supporting just 3 NASCAR teams, they understand development, its cost and how the game is played.


I will post data logs of street oil temps and race oil temps later along with some pictures of some secret sauce in 5 gallon pails down in my lab. I am trying to finish an engine on the dyno currently.. Took a break to grab some chow and relax for a few minutes.. Day started 14 hours ago and I haven't stopped yet :-)

[Jim Miller]

[QUOTE=Jake Raby]Trust me.. Its not a bad thing.

Ever thought about all the contaminants the oil is susceptible to? Coolant intrusion, fuel intrusion, condensation are just a few that need to be purged from the engine at an oil service. Seeing what we gather from UOA and what I noted while using an Intellistick device in one of our test cars, even 5K is pushing it for the oil in these engines.


I will most probably change my oil at 5,000 miles because I have always in the past and I am really enjoying this car. The original question comes from discussing cars during lunch at work. The majority feel Im just wasting money. If you don't keep the car till it dies or if other parts fail before the engine your wasting money. Of course every car I have owned I plan on keeping it for life but it never works out.
My bad weather car is a 89 BMW 325i (oil change every 3000). engine internals clean and strong, everything else looking old.

[Brucelee]

Spending money for your own peace of mind is not "wasting money."

[mikefocke]

Keep the kind of statistics that enable them to cost justify their oil change intervals. How would you or I ever quantify Jake's track car versus my go to the dump car (with occasional blasts and one 6k+ revs romp every trip) versus your usage?

The closest we can come is for people like JFP and Jake who see dozens of engines a month and who do UOAs and record the engines history to tell us their conclusions after they analyze their data. And they universally say change early and often.

Its good enough for me.

(How long has it been since you changed your brake fluid? Said as one whose son lost his ABS system because the brake fluid had absorbed moisture over 8 years and took out about $1.5k in parts on his '94 Mazda.)

[Jim Miller]

Brake fluid is one thing I don't think about, how often should it be done if you just use your car as a daily driver?

[jmatta]

Change your brake fluid every two to three years if just driven on the street...doesn't matter if it's a sports car or your truck.