another dead boxster @#$%!
 

on the first leg of my daily 100 mile round trip, almost to my my destination, 4 miles out on the interstate. big puff of blue smoke, another big puff, running rough. shut it down coasted to a stop. tried to restart and clunky noises ensued.
so now after being towed, I'm sitting here in my shop wondering how I will get the 50 miles back home tonight to my trusty 92 jeep comanche with 160,000 miles on it. I bought the porsche 1 year ago with 52,000. I've driven it 35,000 miles in that year with no real problems but it looks like I have the had the big one.
I'm not far from atlanta, north alabama so I'm hoping I can send it to jake to see if it's salvageable.
the car is in very good shape with 86,000..... except for the dead motor..
somehow it's a little easier knowing some, maybe a lot of you can feel my pain.

do I call Jake? just take to a P dealer and let them bend me over? scrape it?
geeez....

Thanks for listening. I'll appreciate your opinions...


Pat Keefe
2002 base, tip, dead motor

Sounds like an IMS bearing failure.. You should have retrofitted that bearing while you could have, people don't think it can happen to them, until it does.

At any rate, sorry to hear the engine failed.. This has been a week of failure, 7 thus far have been called in and thats just since Monday.

I have a new "certified pre-owned engine program" thats designed to get a proven engine into the car with an updated IMS and a dozen other points of weakness addressed without breaking the bank.. That might be the best way for you to go.

maybe the AOS went bad and semi lock the motor giving you that nasty cranking noise

so sorry about that.
I'd skip the call to the Porsche dealer (this will just make you upset) and start with Jake Raby

Jake,
Yea, we all think, won't happen right now..... until it does.
I've already talked to my tow truck guy and they will deliver the car to you.
I'm just north of birmingham in cullman, AL.
when can I send the car to you? can I get your info off of your website?
you can email me personally at p.keefe@mindspring.com
Thanks Jake.

Pat Keefe

Pat, email sent..
We look forward to working with you.

Sorry to hear about your dilema, Hopoefully its not the IMS that failed. just curious, I have a base 2010 with the 2.9 Do I have an ims too?

09 up [gen2] dont have that old system......ours just smoke like hell on startups...well mine does

Car is on the way now.. We'll make a posterchild out of this one, I'll share the pics, and mode of failure here on the forum.

Thanks, and about the smoke on startup- we just dont look back. lol

Jake Raby, are you free to ball park the number of IMS failures that have come to your shop and how long a time period that ecompasses?

sometimes i cant see back there or i get someone telling me that my car smoked real bad....dealer says its normal...i say....porsche,what was i thinking

What sort of $ is this?

Havent seen this on mine, yet....

But I only have 1050 miles on mine so far. No oil use so far, which is good on these cars apparently.

Sounds like a winner. Since these engines are basically 'plug and play', Jake could ship a finished engine to your local mechanic and have him install it thus saving sending the whole car to and fro. I think reasonably priced upgraded engine will be a godsend to all of us on pins and needles while enjoying our M96 engines. Thanks Jake and keep us posted on upgrades and pricing.

AKL (over 48k and still chugging along) :cheers:

The car should be at Jakes by 8pm tonight. 12 hours after engine failure. now that's service. I'm already looking forward to getting it back. these guys are on the ball. I'm feeling good that my car is on the way to Jake's even though I'm bummed that the engine failed. security that comes with confidence in how professional these guys at Jakes place are.
will keep y'all posted...

Pat

Hope for good news. AOS and hydrolocking or something.

When I do a certified pre owned engine, I prefer the entire vehicle.. Thats because I want to install the engine here and I want to test it on the chassis dyno. I also want to throw my data logger in the car and test the engine to and from my house for a couple of days before release.

The cost associated with this isn't much more than shipping engines to and from the facilities, since we do require a "core" with the Certified engines. Generally shipping the entire car runs less than shipping the engines both ways! This way we also can provide specialized installation and test work to KNOW the engine is solid before shipping. This is especially critical because its a used engine and has no warranty, I won't warranty Porsche's engine, only those built completely here at my facility and completely updated.

The going rates for a certified pre owned engine is generally 7-10K, with that we do the following:
-Update the IMS bearing with the LN/ FSI unit
-Replace the water pump
-Replace lifters with FSI updated units
-Replace chain guides and vario-cam wear pads
-Replace clutch assembly
-Replace AOS
-Replace RMS with 997 unit
-4th and 5th timing chains replaced
-Install new LN Engineering lo temp thermostat
-Install LN Engineering Spin On Oil Filter Adaptor (SPOFA)

This program is proving to be very successful and is giving those who can't spend 18-22K on our fully updated engine a way to take advantage of our special services and a few of our parts without killing the bank account.

Yes, these prices are still more than the "rebuilds" of the mass producers, but if you compare notes you'll see that they don't even replace the AOS or lifters in their full rebuild, but we do these things to a "used" engine because they are simply required.

No, this engine doesn't come with the warranty or pedigree of a fully built FSI updated engine, but it is updated as much as possible under the same roof.

Pat,
I'll keep you updated when the car arrives and etc.. If its ok with you we'll use this thread as a way to communicate so people can see first hand what is associated with the aftermath of an engine failure. I'll post all the pics here and updates to the project as they become available.

As soon as the car arrives I'll take some pics and find it a stall in my stable until we can tear into it at the beginning of the coming week!

(Pat is a great sport, he was still witty even after experiencing what looks to be a full blown failure, most people act like their dog just got shot, for good reason)

Jake what are the problems
 

that prevent turning a core into a CPO engine? In other words, I have a "massive" engine failure and I ship you the car, what could you find that failed that would prevent you accepting the car/core into this program?

And do you have a list of what you don't do to the CPO engine that you do do to the typical full rebuild? (I've always been fan of compare and contrast questions. And figure such a list would help people chose between the CPO and the full options.))

ANY core will be accepted, BUT these cores with massive failures will not ever be offered as a CPO engine, they will be dissected, studied, logged into our records and then their parts that are still good will be filed by part number in my "core bank".

The biggest issue that a CPO engine would have repaired is a cracked head. We are documenting all the repairs of these things and divulging them along with full documentation to the purchasers of the CPO engine, BEFORE we sell that engine to them.

Not really.. but its a lot of differences, you are buying a premium 18-22K engine on one hand and on the other a CPO engine that has some upgrades made to it that can be done without being totally dismantled. There HAS to be a big difference for the difference in price.

But the purchasers of the two are completely different.. The CPO purchaser can't even fathom spending 18-22K for an engine, while the purchaser of the updated engine appreciates the fact that he has a car that doesn't need to be touched again.

They are completely different products with radically different price points, both designed to fill a void.

Makes me long for the LN bearing update...just turned 19k miles on my '02 3.2
S.

Learn from the original poster...

We have a trailer load of cars on the way down next week, including another from Chicago that has an engine failure.. On the way the truck will be stopping by Louisville KY to pick up a 996 with intermix.. May as well fill that truck up with cars headed to Flat Six!

Hell, we are going to start our own trucking company, just to move cars to and from our facility!

Jake,

Which transport company do you use and how safe are cars from damage, cosmetic or otherwise to and from, or at your facility?

Several different companies, depending on where the car is being shipped from.


We've never had a car damaged during shipping, and we've had hundreds of Porsches shipped to and from our facility spanning from 1952-2008. Shipping complications don't really happen, car shippers that we have chosen are reliable and professional. The biggest mistake that can be made is choosing the CHEAPEST shipper.


While cars are at my facility the owner has the option of having them stored under lock and key with my own personal cars, under the same roof.

We have full security and surveillance systems with a 24 hour on site (armed) watchman. We don't have problems, period.

Pat's Boxster just showed up. I'll get it up in the air tomorrow and diagnose it. I'll share the pics if it is a "failure".

Here are a few pics of Pat's car being diagnosed..

First we drained the oil through a strainer to see what material was found.. Then we dropped the sump plate looking for debris but only found some of the IMS bearing seal. This leads me to believe the IMS bearing is going, but is not the primary cause for the car coming to us with its issues.
More in the next post with more pics..

After seeing that the IMS probably is not the primary reason for this episode as the bearing seal is just now being compromised the diagnostic process continues in another direction..

At this point it could be something as minor as a blown Air Oil Separator (AOS)..

Then I noted an exhaust flange that was wet with oil on the 1-3 cylinder bank and that was suspicious.. See the pics.

The next step in diagnosis is finding out why that one exhaust flange is wet, if the issue is the AOS BOTH of the exhaust flanges would generally be wet with oil, so now I am thinking the engine had a failure on the 1-3 cylinder bank.

We have pulled the spark plugs and are in preparation for a borescope inspection, followed by a leakdown and compression test. When the #1 spark plug was pulled that cylinder was full of oil, so looks like we have found the smoking gun...

This engine hasn't been written off yet, it could still be nothing more than an AOS, but now I am thinking cylinder/piston failure or a valve failure that busted the piston.. The diagnostics will tell us.

Pat did the right thing, he shut the car down at the hint of a problem and did not try to re-start it, neither did we... We assume the worst from the beginning and then work our way out to the simpler things.. Lots of people approach this in an opposite manner, only to waste lots of time and the customer's money.

Ok, compression and leakdown test results are in.. I have found some trend data that is leading me to believe the engine has a bent connecting rod.

Here are the compression and leak numbers:
#1= 270 PSI/ 19% leak down
#2= 235 PSI/7% leak down
#3= 230 PSI/5% leak down
#4= 220 PSI/7% leak down
#5= 235 PSI/7% leak down
#6= 230 PSI/7% leak down

The #1 cylinder was filled with oil when the spark plug was pulled for the tests.. A borescope test showed no signs of piston/ valve failure.

The high cylinder pressures of 31 are because the cylinder was pickled in oil, forcing the rings to seal off extremely, which is normal... BUT the high leak down numbers don't make sense as the leak down is entering the crankcase, as if the rings are not sealing.. This leads me to believe the engine had a failed AOS, it filled the #1 cylinder with oil and then hydro-locked thus bending the connecting rod. This would explain why dynamic compression is exceptional but static leak down is horrible.

The next course of action is to replace the sump plate, fill the engine with oil, replace the spark plugs and coil packs and then fire it up... If the engine has a rattle, we know its not the IMS bearing, because we know it is at stage 1 failure, but thats just a compromised seal.. If this rattle is found near #1 cylinder with the stethoscope then we can figure that the connecting rod is bent.

If the rod is bent, the engine will be issued a Death Certificate as the work to repair this on the 1-3 cylinder bank requires complete disassembly. If this is the case its a classic example of how an AOS can fail and create a secondary failure with enough collateral damage to kill the entire engine... Or the head could have cracked and dumped oil in the cylinder, or the scavenge pump on that bank could have failed, or, or, or.. it could be a new mode of failure we've never seen before.

So, after lunch we'll service the engine with oil, fire it up and see what happens... If it doesn't rattle we'll change the AOS then run the engine on the dyno, get it warmed up to burn all the oil out of the cylinders and then run a second compression and leak down test to see if the numbers on cylinder #1 are closer to those of the other 5 cylinders. Hopefully all 5 cylinders will be within allowable tolerances at +/- 10% differential across the board.

I'll report back...

This entire thread is amazing. From breakdown to analysis/diagnosis in Jake's shop within 24 hrs.
Jake, I really appreciate you explaining your thought process and logic rather than just posting your final findings. This allows alot of us with less knowledge and experience to follow closely and understand the process. If only my wife's cardiologist was as competent and forthcoming with information. I feel as if I'm standing next to Jake explaining all this to me personally. A virtual workshop.
My totally stock 2000 S is running great at the moment and that can give one a false sense of security but I know this type of failure is a real possibility. I will have to get more proactive in treating my car to some preventative maintenance.

Can you observe whether the Piston has less travel than the other
cylinders with a hand turn?

A hydrolock we had -- bent the connecting rod (effectively shortening it)
and the piston travel was shorter than the others -- I don't remember
by how much -- but it was visually noticeable.

Mike

JTP,
Thanks for the kind words...
I wanted to take this opportunity to illustrate how these engines should be cared for and examined when they have had potential failures..

The general way a shop attacks a problem like this is by "throwing parts at it" to see what repairs the issue.. This engine also had all the classic examples of a total failure, so many would say "its blown up, replace it" when the reality of it is the engine might not have had much going on at all..

Its too early to say, but I am hopeful that we can have this car repaired within 48 hours from the time it failed... It arrived on the perfect day, we are awaiting parts for every other job in the shop!!

Mike,
If this rod is bent, it has not been shortened, it has more than likely been twisted in the bore, which is how I have seen these rods deform in the past with hydro-lock.

You've got way more datapoint -- the one I saw curled over with a bow -- I'll have
to dig it out and see it actually twisted and see if I can determine
if the stroke would have been shorter or not.
Always trying to gleam some information from every failure to
make the next go round easier.

As others have said -- thanks for sharing!

Mike

Learning from failures provides exceptional experience.. Thats what we do and have done, even with our own test engines.

Now, the results are in... It appears that Pat dodged a big bullet!!
We detached the AOS charge hose to the intake and blocked it off, filled the engine with oil and fired it up..

It smoked like a freight train for 5 minutes and then started clearing up!! There were ZERO mechanical sounds from the engine from start up to full warm up so I feel the issue is the AOS.. I also feel the engine is mechanically sound.

Now we will install a new AOS .. I'll then drive it home tonight and put some miles on it under a watchful eye, then tomorrow we'll repeat the compression and leak down tests and compare numbers to ensure the episode didn't hurt anything else.


NOW:
What people need to learn from this is simple.. IF Pat had cranked this car back up after this extreme episode he would have been in trouble.. The #1 cylinder was half filled with oil, just a bump of the starter would have hydro-locked the engine and created a cylinder/piston/connecting rod failure in short order.. Thats because engine oil can't be compressed to figures as high as the CR of the engine, near 11:1.. Something has to give and something will break.

I think this one was just an extreme AOS failure, we know that everything else is fine..

BUT Pat has an IMS bearing thats at a very early stage 1 failure and he has to make up his mind about what to do. With the car at my facility, the wisest decision is to retrofit that puppy and be done with it.. With seal material in the sump, I feel OK test driving it and doing the rest of my work, but I'd do something very soon...

I won't be dynoing this car until the IMS bearing is addressed, the liability is too high to stress the engine that hard with seal material in the oil...

Pat, go play the lottery... You were lucky today.. BUT you paid attention to the forums and did exactly what you were supposed to do, shut the car down immediately, don't try to re-start it and get it to someone who specializes in the M96 engine.

I could be wrong and if I am the test drive will illustrate that later this evening.. Thats why I do things the way I do them.

Makes me glad I replaced my original AOS at 84k when I put in the new clutch and LN bearing. I thought at the time maybe I was being a bit over cautious. Very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing as well.

Steve

wow, jake. awesome diagnostic plan. thanks for sharing this; it really does provide insight into the merits of a sound, scientific diagnostic approach versus the shady tree shotgun approach.

as we can all see, it pays dividends, and appears to have done so in this case. nice work!

I'll post when I get home this evening with news about the test drive...

As many others have said...thank you. Great thread everyone, especially JR!

Mine is an '03 base and wonder if it too has a potential problem with RMS. Also has Porsche made a recall on this issue or any class action filed to have Porsche rectify a major issue?

AlexH, the short answer to your second question is simply No.
Porsche is pretty much not going to cover anything having to do with this unless the car is still under warranty...which is why it's an especially big problem...and also why there's Jake Raby with solutions. :cheers:

A Judge won't keep your engine from failing.. sorry..

I drove Pat's Boxster home tonight.. 43 miles with no issues at all. After the first 10 miles with the new AOS fitted the smoke had completely cleared up and there were no noises or issues at all.

We'll re-test for compression and leak down tomorrow to see if the numbers are more consistent after run time to burn all the oil out of the intake/cylinders and etc.

This was just a bad AOS, but it could have been much, much worse.