Just wanted to chime in here and point out, for anybody that might have missed it, just how easy it would have been for Jake to come back this afternoon and post, "Yep, just as I expected, the IMS blew, Pat needs a new engine altogether, might as well let me do it while it's in my shop already." No pictures, no step-by-step analysis, and we'd all have simply nodded and said yep, that's the way it goes.

You're a class act, Jake. When I start getting hungry for a little more power than my 3.2L can churn out, I'll be taking another trip to Georgia. :cheers:

This thread has to be one of the best ones I have ever read here. Thank you Jake for providing such a play by play analysis of the diagnosis and repair. :cheers:

Chris

I dont understand the whole IMS function and how they got away with it in the 09 MY cars. Does anyone have a website they can forward explaining this. Thanks. Curious minds want to know.

Actually, it is pretty simple; a short chain on the front of the engine drives the intermediate shaft. At the rear of the engine, the intermediate shaft turns long chains that drive the cams. The rear of the IMS is supported by a sealed bearing that is bolted to a flange behind the flywheel; this is the “problem child” as the seals prevent lubrication by the engine oil, but when the seals begin to fail, allow the ultra thin 0-40W engine oil to wash the grease out of the bearing, but not let enough in to cool and properly lubricate the bearing. Over time, the bearing balls start to gall and eventually the assembly fails, allowing the long rear cam chains to go slack while the engine is turning and jump time. As the M96 is and “interference” engine, pistons start hitting valves, and total mayhem takes over………

http://www.lnengineering.com/imsinstalled32boxster.jpg

for stab1991
 

the following thread at pelican parts layouts the new 9a1 engine, the camshafts are now driven of the crankshaft without the intermediate shaft,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/399701-dfi-engine-block-info-rumors-2.html

Thanks guys. Much better understanding now.

Jake, any news regarding the compression and leak down test.?
BTW, thanks for a great thread..!

Hello all, I just chatted with Jake and the car is running well with the new AOS. I think he's put 80 miles on it since the fix. I'm thankful that it wasn't the catostrphic failure I thought it was. I have opted to go ahead with the retro fitted IMS bearing which he will do next week. he said everything looks good and even at 86,000 mi. the engine seems strong. I could just drive it this way but I'll feel better having the new bearing. I put 35,000 mi. on a car every year so I'm not sure I want to put that many miles the boxster so I may put up for sale when I get it back. I'll feel better selling it with the now AOS and retrofitted bearing. I wish I would have found a car for sale that already had it done.
Jake is a pro and the most helpful and communicative person I have ever dealt with. constant updates. we are all lucky to have such a guy involved with these cars. I feel the the cost of all this has also been more than fair.
I'm sure he will keep the thread running thru the IMS bearing update. I too am looking forward to that. this has been a very positive experience in light of the deressing nature of the breakdown. I'm gone for the weekend but will pick the thread up monday when I get back. motor on dudes and dudettes :)

Pat (O2BOX)

It is always a tough decision
 

just how much preventative maintenance to do.

The AOS is a no-brainer.

But do you stop at the IMS or go on and RMS and/or clutch? Turn it into a cpo or go on for a full rebuild or even a bigger engine?

The costs are so different and is there a right answer?

I don't think so, only the answer you come up with understanding your risk tolerance, budget, other priorities, etc.

Tough to sell this season...over 1000 used Boxsters for sale nationally (cars.com count).

What AOS is recommended gor the 986? Is there an updated version or is the motorsport version better?

RMS is about a $30 part -- no significant extra labor since
it sits about 5" above IMS.
Clutch will probably run about $500 -- a little more labor
but not much. The majority of the labor is same as getting to the IMS.

The RMS is a no brainer, and the clutch is pretty close to that.

Water Pumps are another weak spot IMHO. Part runs $225 plus gasket,
probably 1 hr of labor tops.

Mike

I won't complete an IMSR without doing the RMS and clutch, all the way or not at all is my motto..

These things will be done on Pat's Boxster, but it is a tiptronic, so the course of action is different.

I told Pat that I'd stop at the IMSR procedure on his engine and not go further, because it is a 2002, a tip and had great leakdown and compression numbers, indicating good chamber filling/ good lifters..

Pat is going to do whats most important and thats wise, he has a budget and at the same time doesn't want to be driving a mobile grenade that he KNOWS has the pin pulled due to the rubber that we found in the sump plate.

Pat is going just far enough, his engine's biggest weak point is the IMS bearing, not all model years and engine sizes have the same compromises as others..

I'll post the whole process next week..

Great thread and even greater explanations of potential IMS issues and how it is addressed by Jake. Given the amount of IMS related inquiries by new / concerned forum members maybe this ought to be stickied along with links to Charles Navarro's Youtube explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLRMGs-Ti8

Great job Jake..... :cheers:

Jake:
Unless I missed it, could you post a picture of his failing IMS bearing?

He hasn't gotten to that point yet. There was bearing seal materal in the oil pan but big problem was a failed AOS.

We'll extract the bearing in the coming week now that Pat has agreed to march forward with that process.

You guys will be disappointed with the lack of bearing damage thats visual, more than likely when the bearing is extracted. This is because the tiny bits of seal that we caught in the oil sump are the very earliest stages of seal failure, which is best case scenario for catching an IMS when going south. The damage to the bearing is nil at the present time, BUT the damage will progress fairly quickly once the seal is fully compromised and the permanant lubrication is washed away by the engine oil.

This is best case scenario for Pat, because if the bearing goes further and starts to fail it is more difficult to extract and damage to the IMS tube is possible. This is why being proactive is REQUIRED.

Pat is at great risk for an IMS issue because:
1- The car is an 02 model with a 2.7 and a single row bearing
2- Its a tip
3- Because its a tip coupled to the fact that the car has been driven very easy by Pat because he didn't want to experience an issue..

When driving this car it shifts into 5th gear when in "drive" mode at less than 45 MPH at an RPM of less than 1800.. That spells disaster for the IMS bearing which sees MORE load at the bearing than at higher RPM.

Its a good thing that Pat had the AOS failure and thought the engine was scattered, else it would not have had the sump plate pulled and the seal material would not have been noted. This would have led to bearing failure out of the blue.

This is the procedure that we'll be carrying out for Pat on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of the coming week in detail. I still have to add pics of the process to the site, but I am so busy helping guys like Pat that I just can't get that done!
http://www.flat6innovations.com/services/intermediate-shaft-retrofit

We are in work this morning doing the final compression and leak down tests to ensure that the issues with Pat's Boxster have worked themselves out. I'll post results in a few minutes as soon as we complete the evaluations.

I have the IMSR procedure scheduled on my schedule for tomorrow and Wednesday, we'll be posting the entire procedure here from start to finish.

Here are the compression numbers from this morning's tests..

The numbers are good, we did the test warm since I drove the car in this morning. The good news is that #1 has dropped back to the normal numbers.

Here they are-
1-195 PSI/ 4% leak
2-190 PSI/ 4% leak
3-190 PSI/ 5% leak
4-190 PSI/ 6% leak
5-195 PSI/ 6% leak
6-190 PSI/ 6% leak

These are good numbers from a warm engine with 86K miles. We are marching on with the IMSR procedure now.

Pat's IMS has been retrofitted and the seal was definitely compromised!! I'll show you guys how we knew this tomorrow when I post pics.

We'll have the car back together and on the dyno tomorrow!

Forgive my delay in posting some pics..

Here is Pat's IMSR procedure in pictorial form..

In this series of pics the transaxle is removed, then the flex plate is removed to gain access to the IMS bearing flange.

In these pics we get to the point of IMS puller fitting and finally bearing extraction.
Note that we are not using the standard DIY bearing puller, we choose to use the "pro puller".

In this series of pics the bearing is extracted, tube cleaned and prepped for the new bearing to be fitted.

Note the blue colored oil pouring from the IMS tube after the bearing extraced.. This dye was introduced ino the oil prior to my test drive after the AOS was replaced.. We used this to prove that the IMS bearing seal was compromised and was allowing oil past it.. The engine oil only had the dye introuced 83 miles before the IMS bearing was extracted.
The seal on this bearing was so bad that the IMS tube became completely filled with blue dyed oil!! This oil released when the IMS bearing was extracted. The oil got past the IMS bearing because the seal was compromised, just as I suspected after I saw the debris in the sump.

This bearing was well on the way to failure, its seal was compoletely compromised and the bearing had gotten stiff.

This is how far we giot yesterday.. Today we finished the insertion and got it all back together and ready for the dyno. We'll dyno it tomorrow and begin the final stages.

Not a Boxster but still.....
 

Guys just another data point on the Raby quality, I just finished my first full season with the FSI 3.8 fully massaged engine in my track only 996. About 2k track only miles between Brainerd International and Road America this summer. The engine performed flawlessly. No runs, drips, or errors. I just wish the driver was as good. 2 oil changes so far and no metal or sealant goobers to speak of.

Thanks Jake!
Lon

Jake, must the sump plate be removed to spot bearing gasket material or will it show up in the oil filter, as well? I'm going to change my oil in the next week or so (car is ready to be put away for Chicago winter soon) and thought I may be a bit proactive on looking for trouble signs...I'm thinking of having the bearing changed by next spring before driving season, just as a precaution.

Lon, nice of you to drop in.. That beast was a challenge to build, but its been pure satisfaction for both of us!

jmatta,
Yes, removing the sump plate is a necessary evil.. The design of the area around the drain plug keeps debris in the sump during an oil service.. Pull that sucker and inspect!

Pat's Boxster is now 100% completed and has even passed the chassis dyno. I'll be test driving it over the weekend to ensure it has no leaks, noises or etc before Pat comes to pick it up on Tuesday!

I'll post some pics Monday.. Tomorrow is a holiday for us here.

how much power does that bad boy put down?

350 at the rear wheels....

"Yes, removing the sump plate is a necessary evil.. The design of the area around the drain plug keeps debris in the sump during an oil service.. Pull that sucker and inspect!"

I feel it's worth the effort, as that's how you found the original poster's bearing was in early failure stage. BTW, your YouTube video on the LN deep sump plate makes the R&R quite simple for those who have not performed this task.

This thread has been quite enlightening and I truly appreciate the time and effort you've put in to educating owners on what troubles may be lurking within.

After reading this thread, I'm certainly considering replacing my IMS bearing... good insurance and a selling point for my car, although I don't think i'll ever sell it :)
Thank you Jake for the pics and the education.

Jake,

just want to drop a comment and thanks. In my area in the UK there is a distinct lack of knowledge of the M96 engine. There are Porsche Indi specialists, but no one with:

a. the technical knowledge and experience.
b. the willingness to share that experience.

If it were economically viable to box up my box and send it to you for work i would in a new york minute.

you expertise, experience and knowledge is very much appreciated on this side of the pond too.

if you ever have interest in starting a UK operation let me know. :D

cheers.

Thanks guys...
The UK is starved for expertise, BUT there are some there doing things similar to us here in the states.. Autofarm and Hartec both.

But our focus is a bit different..

That said, shipping isn't too bad! I have had a Porsche shipped to me from the Netherlands in the past :-)

Well, this story has a happy ending.. Pat is on his way to the Flat 6 Compound to pick up his Boxster today..

What looked so bad wasn't.. But we were able to note some imminent failures and take care of those before they cost Pat a complete engine.

Pat was great to work with and he has a nice Boxster..

Amazing story, I always love to hear when you are able to save a motor before it completely dies. Many other techs would simply throw the motor away and smack you with a $20,000 repair bill.

Nice Job.

so now that his IMS/RMS updates are complete, how long do you expect them to last before preventative maintainance requires their replacement again?

Thanks

:EDIT: Also, and aside from preventative maintainance, is it really better for these motors to run them every day at higher revs? I still find it difficult to comprehend that the added stress of daily use can help to delay failurs like these, or the IMS/RMS issues.

Thank you!

I picked up the boxster at Jakes yesterday. was a beautiful drive over in the rented VW Beetle. the drive thru that part of the country is amazing this time of year. the winding roads, climbing up and over the peaks and then back down the other side was a blast. all in front of the monster storm that was brewing.
the ride back was more fun since I had the Box back. it rained hard while we pushed thru the twisties. reminded me of racing my vintage Formcar FV in the rain at IRP.
As far as the car and the repairs, I feel fortunate that the original failure was only the AOS and that the engine wasn't hurt from it. I had contemplated doing the bearing upgrade to the IMS anyway and since I was close enough to Jakes shop (250 miles) to have the car sent there it seemed silly not to have it done while it was there. I feel good having had it done for me and for the next guy /gal that owns this car. I also feel good about the dyno testing/ leakdown tests etc. that were done to evaluate the motor.
Jakes operation is first class. the shop is quite a place. The car runs like a champ.
for me this was a no brainer given the situation. I wasn't ready to spend a ton of money on a new motor so this worked out well.
These cars are not for the financially faint at heart. repairs can and will be very expensive. too bad porsche doesn't provide replacement engines at affordable price but that seems to be the deal with most higher end cars.
planned obsolesence.
I'm am a very satisfied customer. I know there are a lot of other things that can go wrong with these motors but I feel like I did what I could to keep this nice little boxster on the road.
Jake was totally honest with me along and He did everything that he said he would. I'm back on the road and would do it the same way again.
Jake seems to really care about the cars and the people. I'm glad they were there.

Pat Keefe
2002 Boxster Base, Tip, and, upgraded IMS Bearing :) 86,000 miles and counting...

My magic wand is not working right now...

Honestly there is no telling here in the real world.. If I were the kind of guy that didn't feel strongly about over-stating things I'd tell you what you want to hear and I'd give you a false sense of security.. It would taste really good all sugar coated.

Our components currently have a 100% success rate, none have failed so trying to gather information about how long they will last is absolutely impossible.

-----------------------
People wonder why we are located where we are.. You just explained it! Plus I get to work on the property thats been in my family for almost 100 years, where I grew up and where I want to be every day...

Did you go back over the dragon on the way home?


That day you should have played the lottery. you were very lucky!

I absolutely concur... Not many cars leave here without an IMSR applied, or a full FSI engine upgrade.

It performed well...

And you only saw 1/3 of where the magic happens :-)

Glad to hear!


GREAT!!!!!

If I didn't my Dad would roll over in his grave.. He literally beat that into me and the USMC finished it off!

Thats what matters most.

Yep. Thats the ONLY reason we do this...

It was great working with you, Pat. Come see us sometime, or grab a beetle and let me show you what I can really do!

I THINK EXTANKER HIT IT RIGHT ON THE NOSE BY THE THIRD POST!!

On a side note though, it is great to add reliability and peace of mind with one little part.

But when you
 

hydrolock the motor, things can get pretty busted up in there. What he got by going to Jake was not just an AOS change but an analysis of the engine for any secondary damage. That he got out of there with so little (easy for me to say, I wasn't paying) wrong with the engine was luck. He now has peace of mind not only because of the AOS and IMS but because of the analysis of the state of the engine.

What we got out of it was insight into the thought process that a very experienced mechanic went through to identify the problem and to insure that that was the only problem and it was worth fixing.

Thanks to both 02box and Jake for sharing the experience with us.

Had I just thrown an AOS on it without pulling the plugs and going further the engine would have failed the first time the #1 piston travelled toward TDC, while on the starter.

I've seen that happen before.. Throwing parts at a problem is quick and when it works it saves money. When it doesn, it can cost an engine.

Pat's description of what happened wasn't classic AOS, so I assumed the worst and worked from there.

I hope you did not think I meant any ill comments. You know, hindsight is 20/20. This thread was absolutely amazing to read, and the troubleshooting was amazing. Yes, many people would simply throw a AOS on and be done with it and break the motor in the process, and then say.....must have been something else. I have a friend of mine that took a ford explorer to a local dealership and SOMEHOW while changing a fuel rail and injector flooded one of the cylinders with fuel and then immediatly cranked the motor over and blew the motor up. They told him....well it was our mistake, however the motor was already broke when you brought it in, and that led to the reason that it blew up. He had to pay $5,000 for a new motor. He is still fighting that one.

So question is, would you include changing out the AOS every 60-80,000 miles AND the water pump a good precautionary measure, or is it not needed. Run it till it breaks?

I think the insight and precautionary attitude is great. Thanks.