Fuel these days...

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pk2

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I noticed "toluene" on the list as an anti knock additive. Never had a knock but that's just because the timing will be automatically retarded, but that will effect performance. I use Toluene in a pinch to up the octane, It has debatable burn characteristics but it is cooler.

That's strange the higher oct. gives worse mileage. Here in CA we get to set the standards for some 12 other states(sorry) (instead of looser fed standards). I thought we oxygenated with alcohol everything, 87-91 oct. No escape. It use to be just a summertime thing but I think it's year around now.

Is performance wonder how much performance is effected with 91 oct.

Regards, PK

For anyone unfamiliar, octane rating is a measurement of the energy it takes to start a gasoline to burn, the energy content is the amount of energy that will be released when it does burn. There's no direct correlation between the two.

Different refiners use different mixtures to increase a fuel's octane rating some of these additives have higher energy contents than others. But in general, the additives they use to increase the octane rating has a lower energy content than the gasoline itself. This is what typically leads to the lower fuel economy.

[d18mike]

This from The Baltimore Sun last week ... a sign of the times ...

Excess Ethanol Blamed in Breakdown of Police Cars

City officials say an unusually high concentration of ethanol in the city's gasoline supply contributed to the breakdown of more than 70 police cars over the weekend, most of which had been repaired and returned to service Tuesday.

More than 200 police cars fueled up at a 24-hour, city-run gas pump by the Fallsway before cars started showing problems, and nearly one-third of the Police Department's patrol contingent was sidelined with engine trouble.

Police doubled up in cars before activating a reserve and shifting administrative vehicles into service.

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Where I live in Michigan I can not get ethanol-free gas. And given the investment in ethanol that oil companies have made in the past year, it's hard to imagine that the 90/10 mix won't be the rule further afield in the next few years.

It will be interesting to see if there is a large enough market for one of the major oil companies to sell a premium Sports Car fuel (100% gas).

My strategy at this point is to simply stick with the major brands (Shell, BP, Chevron, Sunoco) and the highest Octane I can get locate.

[yellowboxster01]

It's possible here to find gasoline that doesn't have ethanol. They usually have a large sign outside that says, "100% gasoline sold here". A few stations here also have both. Although it does cost more for pure gasoline, I've noticed a change of about 5mpg switching between them.

I asked my mechanic a while back if there were any adverse effects to using ethanol fuel and he told me that over time it will etch the inside of the tank and send metal shavings through the fuel system. There happened to be an older Porsche there that they were flushing the lines and changing the fuel filter. I was skeptical to his claims until he showed me the fuel filter and to my surprise there were metal shavings. They also showed me the waste bucket from flushing the lines and there were little metal shavings all over the bottom of the bucket.

I can't think of anything else that would cause such a thing. I've since switched to using pure gasoline.

[mptoledo]

I asked the mechanic (at the dealership I ran) the difference between an ethanol and gas vehicle. He told me that the ethanol car had a different lined tank, fuel lines and special gaskets as the ethanol was more corrosive than gas and would eat through normal lined parts. I know its only 10% mix(in most cases) but as the rest have said it can damage your car over time.

[blue2000s]

Ethanol is a solvent and will react with some plastics. Cars made in the 70s and before weren't designed with ethanol in mind and so it's use may cause damage to fuel lines and seals. It also absorbs moisture more easily, so if it sits in a gas tank for a long time, it can encourage the formation of rust.

All modern cars are designed with ethanol-safe materials. There's no risk of damage to your Boxster directly related to using 10% ethanol in your gasoline. It will lower gas mileage, though, due to it's lower energy content.

[mptoledo]

Only a car that states e85 ready or flex fuel is truly compatible with ethanol. As stated before cars(even 2000 model cars) are not fully able to run ethanol over a certain %.
Ethanol is a hoax perpatrated by our politicians to get the midwest vote. It is less fuel effecient and if you actually take the amount of water and energy to make ethanol, you are better off with gas only. The amount of polution given off to make ethanol is much greater than the savings it claims as burning cleaner than gas..

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by mptoledo

Only a car that states e85 ready or flex fuel is truly compatible with ethanol. As stated before cars(even 2000 model cars) are not fully able to run ethanol over a certain %.

All cars from about 1985+ are compatible with 10% ethanol. Only cars designed for E85 have ignition and fueling systems able to recognize and operate the engine on E85.

Originally Posted by mptoledo

Ethanol is a hoax perpatrated by our politicians to get the midwest vote. It is less fuel effecient and if you actually take the amount of water and energy to make ethanol, you are better off with gas only. The amount of polution given off to make ethanol is much greater than the savings it claims as burning cleaner than gas..

I like to keep out of political conversations, everyone's right and there's never a resolution.

[pk2]

Blue200s,
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Originally Posted by blue2000s

For anyone unfamiliar, octane rating is a measurement of the energy it takes to start a gasoline to burn, the energy content is the amount of energy that will be released when it does burn. There's no direct correlation between the two.

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Nailed, got me. So whats your take on %100 octane unleaded race fuel? Fortified with "Red-Bull" & "thunderbird" " or something of substance?

And as far as additives go, where does toulene rank? whats better?
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Originally Posted by blue2000s

Different refiners use different mixtures to increase a fuel's octane rating some of these additives have higher energy contents than others. But in general, the additives they use to increase the octane rating has a lower energy content than the gasoline itself. This is what typically leads to the lower fuel economy.

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So has no one figured out who blends the best stuff together? Also, if there adding bad cholesterol (additives) to make it 93, whats to keep them from adding bad cholesterol to 87 oct to make 91?

PK

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pk2

Blue200s,
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Nailed, got me. So whats your take on %100 octane unleaded race fuel? Fortified with "Red-Bull" & "thunderbird" " or something of substance?

And as far as additives go, where does toulene rank? whats better?
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So has no one figured out who blends the best stuff together? Also, if there adding bad cholesterol (additives) to make it 93, whats to keep them from adding bad cholesterol to 87 oct to make 91?

PK

I don't know exactly what's in Race Fuels like Sunco that makes them different, but I'd guess it's probably got alot less of the additives that are in normal gas. The higher percentage of fuel allows it to have more energy content. It also keeps it from cleaning your engine and shortens it's shelf life.

If all else were equal, there's no point in buying a gas for a higher octane rating than 93 (or 91 for us at higher altitude). Porsche's set the compression, ignition and valve timing to work most efficiently at 93 octane. Using a fuel with a higher octane rating doesn't gain anything. Having said that, if a race fuel has more energy content, you will get more torque from the engine. You will also increase stresses on components and increase the temperature of the engine and cooling system.

The additives in a particular gasoline are what make up the different grades/octanes. BP, for example, starts with the same base and adds different things to it to make it low, mid, or high grade. In fact, mid grade is a 50/50 mixture of low and high grade often mixed at the pump.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I don't know exactly what's in Race Fuels like Sunco that makes them different,.... The higher percentage of fuel allows it to have more energy content. It also keeps it from cleaning your engine and shortens it's shelf life.

If all else were equal, there's no point in buying a gas for a higher octane rating than 93 (or 91 for us at higher altitude). ...Using a fuel with a higher octane rating doesn't gain anything... You will also increase stresses on components and increase the temperature of the engine and cooling system.

The additives in a particular gasoline are what make up the different grades/octanes. BP, for example, starts with the same base and adds different things to it to make it low, mid, or high grade. In fact, mid grade is a 50/50 mixture of low and high grade often mixed at the pump.

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I have forced induction and a piggyback AIC (or call it a DME-lite) that leaves whatever Porches intent was as far as induction & ignition goes, somewhere back along the road.

Your right I suppose that more energy might create more heat but, a blower adds alot more though, an easy 125+ degrees to the intake temp. The hotter the charge the more it is likely to detonate.. Knock sensors will solve that by retarding the timing but, start Kissing performance away to.

The setup as designed is really pushing the limit on 93 octane (probably pre ethanol 93). We only have 91 oct. (except for 2 or 3 places across town) So, just to get it to that minimal 93, I have to brew my own from 91 and 100. I can't pretend to notice the dif between 93 or 91. I've been leed to beleive higher octane it a cooler burn. Keeping my piston from burning (they can) is my only concern. This thread complicates things a bit.

PK

[Brucelee]

I just came back from Des Moines and noticed that the national oil companies seem totally absent.

They had grades like Hy-Vy and the like. One assumes they buy there gas from someone else.

Yikes!

[pk2]

Oh Hy-Vy rules, 8 essential vytamines and minerals in every tank.

To Blue200os's point, BP mixing the brew at the tanker/station, i think I've heard they all do that. They probably service the generics the same way. I was going to say hy-vy is not exactly prominent on the NYSE. Couldn't help but google it and it wasn't there either. ...very scary Bruce.

PK

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pk2

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I have forced induction and a piggyback AIC (or call it a DME-lite) that leaves whatever Porches intent was as far as induction & ignition goes, somewhere back along the road.

Your right I suppose that more energy might create more heat but, a blower adds alot more though, an easy 125+ degrees to the intake temp. The hotter the charge the more it is likely to detonate.. Knock sensors will solve that by retarding the timing but, start Kissing performance away to.

The setup as designed is really pushing the limit on 93 octane (probably pre ethanol 93). We only have 91 oct. (except for 2 or 3 places across town) So, just to get it to that minimal 93, I have to brew my own from 91 and 100. I can't pretend to notice the dif between 93 or 91. I've been leed to beleive higher octane it a cooler burn. Keeping my piston from burning (they can) is my only concern. This thread complicates things a bit.

PK

Adding a forced induction system to a high compression engine will certainly require an increase in octane rating in the fuel you use for safety. Compression pressure is higher, mixture temp is higher, cylinder temps are higher, the potential for hot pieces of residual carbon setting off the mixture prematurely is higher. Everything is there to allow for an unintended ignition. You would want the increase in octane to resist the chances. Actually, it's popular within the tuners of turbo engines to use E85 (speaking of E85) because it's octane rating is very high, which allows for high boost levels beyond what you can do on pump gas.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Adding a forced induction system to a high compression engine will certainly require an increase in octane rating in the fuel you use for safety. Compression pressure is higher, ...You would want the increase in octane to resist the chances.

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All very true. Pistons can come to look like Swiss cheese fondue on a connecting rod to.
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Originally Posted by blue2000s

Actually, it's popular within the tuners of turbo engines to use E85 (speaking of E85) because it's octane rating is very high, which allows for high boost levels beyond what you can do on pump gas.

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So what you seem to be saying is rating (burn starter energy), by whatever means (ethanol, whatever), is more important and the actual energy content doesn't matter much with a blower. In fact, the rational for the 91 oct. sects belief system is opposite to that which you are suggesting for this app.

Interesting about e-gas. I've not seen it...but I haven't looked either. What is it likely to dissolve?

Regards, PK

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pk2

So what you seem to be saying is rating (burn starter energy), by whatever means (ethanol, whatever), is more important and the actual energy content doesn't matter much with a blower. In fact, the rational for the 91 oct. sects belief system is opposite to that which you are suggesting for this app.

Interesting about e-gas. I've not seen it...but I haven't looked either. What is it likely to dissolve?

Regards, PK

Apparently, high boost and more fuel more than makes up for the difference in energy content.