ca$h for clunker$ @ stealership - Page 3 - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

urban_legend · 08-10-2009, 03:19 PM

Well you can always donate your boat or RV...
Hey how about, cash for catamarans. Nice ring don't you think?

Brucelee · 08-10-2009, 03:21 PM

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Never spend your money before you have earned it.

Power is not alluring to pure minds.

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country.

Thomas Jefferson

Lil bastard · 08-13-2009, 08:16 AM

Another example of poor judgement in rushing to triple the size of the program before any analysis to see if the program actually accomplishes anything, except draining the taxpayers coffers that is.

$3 billion buys not-so-green vehicles

Change you can bereave in...

gstoli · 08-13-2009, 08:52 AM

Ok, here is the humble opinion of a foreigner...

Obama is good for this country's profile. He is something that this country needs if you want to reestablish good faith from the rest of the world.

This program (CARS) sounds good, yet it affects the economy and is coming from the government. Is this bad? Not necessarily... But I guess socialism (even in the very light form Obama applies it) should be forbidden, even taken out of our vocabulary. On the other hand the unconstrained capitalism was so good that its unwanted results that everyone is going through now are negligible...

Do a search in this forum for "Bush" and one for "Obama", you'll see what I mean...

Nevertheless, what makes Porsche owners appropriate judges of administration programs that are meant to help the poorer? Is it that we drive efficient, domestic cars and we care about the environment? I don't think so...

I guess Porsche owners belong in the high income portion of this country's population. Most of them may well be republicans, not liking a democrat president anyway... But don't turn this forum into a political combat...

Brucelee · 08-13-2009, 09:05 AM

Ok, here is the humble opinion of a foreigner...

Obama is good for this country's profile. He is something that this country needs if you want to reestablish good faith from the rest of the world.

Interesting comment. So, it must be necessary to take a world tour and apologize for America. Hmm, you can understand why this might strike some of us here as not being a good thing.

This program (CARS) sounds good, yet it affects the economy and is coming from the government. Is this bad? Not necessarily... But I guess socialism (even in the very light form Obama applies it) should be forbidden, even taken out of our vocabulary. On the other hand the unconstrained capitalism was so good that its unwanted results that everyone is going through now are negligible...

You make some very interesting and unsubstantiated claims here. One is that the program sounds good. Perhaps to you, yet many on both sides of the political spectrum here in the US believe it is an utter waste of money that the government is having to borrow in order to fund.

That is the essential issue many of us have with most of what Obama is doing. He is spending like a drunken sailor and he is spending money he does not have and will not have in the future. Where I come from, we don't think that is a GOOD thing!

Do a search in this forum for "Bush" and one for "Obama", you'll see what I mean...

Oh you mean we might have a particular leaning here? No surprise there. Most of us work for a living and resent having our money wasted.

Nevertheless, what makes Porsche owners appropriate judges of administration programs that are meant to help the poorer? Is it that we drive efficient, domestic cars and we care about the environment? I don't think so...

This program to help the "poorer" helped my millionaire cousin buy here new Lexus. Hmmm, what makes me think I can have an opinon about that?

PS-I "care" about the environment but what does that really mean?

I guess Porsche owners belong in the high income portion of this country's population. Most of them may well be republicans, not liking a democrat president anyway... But don't turn this forum into a political combat...

This lounge is for this kind of interchange. No one is compelled to enter and we enjoy a good back and forth.

gstoli · 08-13-2009, 09:39 AM

But there is no interchange and definitely no back and forth... It seems that you all are in some kind of agreement in all government matters...

You should have this debate in the Ford Focus forum (I think there is at least one). I guess there you would have to go back, because here it's been forth forth forth

Anyway, I just wanted to express my feelings regarding the general situation in the forum. It looks to me that there are 3-4 threads open simultaneously, discussing (criticizing) Obama's administration.

Just 2 cents from a "resident alien" as we were referred to earlier in this thread... or your proud European (Greek) member as I would prefer to be called

And to keep the dialog open...

When I first came here (2 years ago) I was amazed to see that people dislike Bush and were long waiting for change. This was not evident/known to Europe.
Was Obama the right way to go? Maybe yes, maybe not... He sure is considered promising outside US.

The program sounds good to me... Boosting the economy needs wasting money. It's the omelet without breaking eggs story again...

And again, your cousin buying a Lexus right now is actually helping the poor.

Environmentaly conscious means that measures that appear to have positive environmental impact should be looked at positively... Judgment can follow of course but starting from this point...

Lil bastard · 08-13-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstoli

Ok, here is the humble opinion of a foreigner...

Obama is good for this country's profile. He is something that this country needs if you want to reestablish good faith from the rest of the world.

This program (CARS) sounds good, yet it affects the economy and is coming from the government. Is this bad? Not necessarily... But I guess socialism (even in the very light form Obama applies it) should be forbidden, even taken out of our vocabulary. On the other hand the unconstrained capitalism was so good that its unwanted results that everyone is going through now are negligible...

Do a search in this forum for "Bush" and one for "Obama", you'll see what I mean...

Nevertheless, what makes Porsche owners appropriate judges of administration programs that are meant to help the poorer? Is it that we drive efficient, domestic cars and we care about the environment? I don't think so...

I guess Porsche owners belong in the high income portion of this country's population. Most of them may well be republicans, not liking a democrat president anyway... But don't turn this forum into a political combat...

It is of course your opinion that Obama is good for the country's profile. But, it is my opinion that it is the job of an American President to conduct their foreign policy in a manner, which is 100% in the self-interest of the USA, not to approach other nations hat-in-hand as Obama and his Sec. of State 'Billary' have done.

I also expect that other nations too act purely in their own self-interest - that is their purpose. Only when common interests can be furthered should there be any type of accommodation or cooperation - that is the way of nation-states.

Establish good faith in the rest of the world? America is the #1 customer to the world... if they don't like us, then they can sell their goods and services to someone else! Oh.. wait... no, they cannot - there is nobody else!

The CARS program is NOT good for the economy! Selling more Japanese cars is NOT good for America, especially when at the same time; we are propping up GM and Chrysler to the tune of several billion dollars! Nor is it significantly impacting the environment, especially when one considers that whatever reduced carbon emissions or saved petroleum is more than negated by the excesses in both these things by emerging nations such as China and India.

The CARS program, as originally conceived was to be a $1Billion, 90-day program. 33 days into it, the Administration threatens Congress with their August recess unless they add an additional $2Billion to the program, and this without any accounting for how the first billion was spent or what goals were achieved. It's as if they wanted $3Billion all along, but knew Congress, and the American people, would not have stood for that - the camel in the tent syndrome. A very real reason to distrust the current Administration and it’s motives.

Socialism does not work in the sense that it stifles innovation, work ethic and does not create wealth through value adding. Many euros now reside in the US specifically because of their socialist homelands. In fact, a salesman at our local Porsche dealership is a Netherlander from the Haig named George (aka the Dutchman). I once asked him how he came to live in the US, his reply was that he was "tired of working hard and getting nowhere, watching the govt. spend it on people who didn't contribute” his words, not mine.

It's incredible to me that when confronted with the obvious lack of experience, missteps and lack off progress to-date by our current president, people (along with the Media) inject a comparison to Geo. Bush. That is laughable! If you insist on comparing the two, well at this same point in his presidency, Geo. Bush had a 56% approval rating to Obama's current 50%. I was no particular supporter of many issues in the Bush presidency, but I did feel that he was president for ALL the people. But, Bush ain't the guy, he's yesterday's news. Obama is now the guy who is supposed to get it done, who promised to get it done, who said he knew how to get it done. Comparisons like this are no comparison at all - different time, different circumstances.

At this time in our country's history, America seriously needs a leader. Unfortunately what we got was another liberal, partisan politician (and a crooked Chicago style politician at that). If there were a comparison to be made between Obama and a former US President, then a comparison to Jimmy Carter would be more apropos. A State politician with little prior experience, elected on the heels of a backlash to an unpopular president (Nixon, and Ford who pardoned Nixon), weak on foreign policy, taking office in a downturn and relying on heavy deficit domestic spending to buy his way to a second term. And, like Carter, I predict that Obama too will be a one-termer, followed by 12 years of republican presidency. I think the only consolation I get from your expression of personal opinion is that at least you will not be able to counter my vote.

Brucelee · 08-13-2009, 11:56 AM

Lill has pretty much read my mind.

Thanks buddy!

mikefocke · 08-13-2009, 05:39 PM

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

Brucelee · 08-13-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

On its face, ah, no.

That would depend on how many cars Ford sold via the program. Since BO won't release the data, we just have to guess.

Transparency. That was what was promised.

tonycarreon · 08-13-2009, 06:28 PM

oh my, why am i wading in...

according to dealer reports on 8/7, the total # of cars sold through the CARS program was around 220,000. on the same date chrysler reported limited supplies of some of its vehicles with patriots only having about a 7-day supply left.

gm reported the aveo and cobalt and some of the other popular vehicles were in short supply with dealers having around 466,000 cars on their lots. roughly a 70-day supply, the lowest in decades.

toyota reported supply went from 51 days to 31 days in july with the prius having 13 days of inventory.

most automakers have started ramping up production. one side-effect is that dealer incentives are down since people seem to be taking advantage of the CARS program.

"The big plus of cash for clunkers is that even if they don't buy a car today, it's getting people to think about purchasing, and that's really the first step toward any sustainable rebound in the automotive industry," Chrysler spokeswoman Kathy Graham said.

ford said it would build another 6,000 focus through the end of September, and another 3,500 escape.

"The move will contribute to Ford's third quarter production being 18% higher than the same time last year. 'I think we were surprised by the speed and the urgency with which consumers went to dealers,' said Ford sales analyst George Pipas."

ford's announced it will add overtime and saturday shifts for the focus and not close the kansas city plant that makes the escape and will boost overall production in the oct-dec period by 33%.

"Official figures from the Commerce Department showed that (CARS) helped lift US car sales by 2.4% in July, the biggest rise in six months."

tnoice · 08-13-2009, 06:29 PM

You know, ultimately it does not matter if the president is a democrat or a republican, it is the fact that all of the programs that President Obama and this administration have rolled out have created an immense amount of debt and perpetual debt.
When I work with a client that has an immense amount of debt and their debt is growing, there are really only a couple of ways we can clean it up. 1) cut expenditures ---- 2) make more money.
The problem with this administration is that they have no intention of cutting expenditures and have promised to make more money. How might the government make more money you ask, raise taxes. Makes a person worry about the large amount of money in untaxed investment accounts (ira, 401k, ect..) or purchasing anything in the future due to unfelt taxes (alcohol tax, communication tax, tobacco tax, tax on gambling, tax on cable television, how creative can we get?)

sorry just had to vent
:dance:

Brucelee · 08-13-2009, 06:42 PM

Here is why the dealers love the CFC program.

My cousin goes to trade in her 1992 Lexus. She is excited as she will get a $3500 credit from CFC.

Before this progam, the dealer would have turfed her at least that on a trade and she would have been happy.

Now, you and I get to eat the trade value via this program.

WHO is the sucker here?

Ah, US.

Lil bastard · 08-13-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

If you wanna play the 'Entitlement Game', why is the Administration even trying to prop up the Auto Industry? Obama himself has stated (as recently as mid-July) that the auto industry jobs are just not gonna come back - Obama: Lost Auto Jobs Are Gone Forever . If that's the case, why are we spending taxpayer money on such a fruitless effort? What happens the next time the auto industry takes a downturn? Well don't look to the UAW to lend a hand - Auto Workers Union Rules Out Concessions To Help Detroit Bailout , so why are we so hell-bent to rush to help them?

There are many more jobs lost in the housing and construction industries. Why not give people $4500 credit toward the down payment on a house?The auto industry has lost about 600k jobs while the housing and construction industry has lost more than 2 million jobs.

Could it be that the CARS program allows Obama to make a bigger splash and give him an 'instant win' in what has otherwise been at best a mediocre, and at worst a dismally failing, 100days? Or does it allow him to target the industry, the ethnicity and the region which supported him in the Presidential race?

Could it be that the Contruction and Trades unions - the 45,000-member Operative Plasterers' and Cement Masons' International Association, the 200,000 member Building and Construction Trades Council, the 230,000 member Sheet Metal Workers' International Association and the United Transportation Union, the 25,000 member International Association of Heat and Frost Insulators and Asbestos Workers, the 700,000 member Laborers' International Union of North America, all of whom supported Hillary Clinton in the DNC primaries are less worthy than a measley 400,000 member United Autoworkers Union? And, the possibilities are not just limited to these industries, there are several segments in trouble that could be assisted.

And, what do you say the the guy who wants to buy a new car the day the money runs out? Too Bad? And what about non-drivers? My 86 y.o. mother has never driven a car her entire life, relying on public transit and walking, she's not, and has never been, part of the problem, yet she must involuntarily pay to entitle someone else to be.

That's the problem with entitlements - they single out one group for preferential treatment at the expense of everyone else. This is not the type of program which is a solution to America's economy, not even short term. But, it's a great way for the President to grandstand before the American People.

limoncello · 08-14-2009, 05:36 AM

I agree, but with one exception on the housing/construction aspect.

One of the causes of the economic downturn was the residential housing bubble and accompanying mortgage crisis. For a variety of reasons (loose credit, overbuying one's income, high speculative construction) we overbuilt: there were too many houses in many areas.

Subsidizing new home construction would seem to exacerbate the problem. Why not subsidize (if you have to subsidize anything) the REMOVAL of housing from overbuilt areas by demolition of abandoned, derelict, or empty/foreclosed homes.

Time and normal market forces will correct the housing imbalance of supply and demand, but if an administration feels like it HAS to subsidize something, don't make the imbalance worse by adding more new homes in an already overbuilt areas. This would just put more pressure on prices.

The residential construction industry has to shrink somewhat. After a bubble like we just saw, the industry will not return to the peak 2007 levels for long while, in my opinion.

Construction is, and always has been, cyclical - at least for the 34 years I've been in it and watching it. It's notorious for it's "feast or famine" behavior.

Brucelee · 08-14-2009, 06:14 AM

You guys both make valid points.

Hence, the inherent problem with the Feds trying to stimulate anything.

Perhaps, they should have simply propped up the banking system and deveoped a tax cutting strategy aimed at encouraging private investment and corp investment in jobs creation.

Now, that might have been less appealing to the extreme left but arguably benefited the country more.

Just a thought!

Brucelee · 08-14-2009, 06:17 AM

BTW, I laughed my butt off listening to NPR yesterday. They were literally begging folks to donate their clunkers to the station rather than to use if for a CFC item.

Unintended consequences. It seems many of these old cars were given to charity.

Boo hoo.

Brucelee · 08-14-2009, 06:27 AM

Warning over US cash-for-clunkers scheme
By Simone Baribeau in New York and Bernard Simon in Toronto

Published: August 13 2009 18:51 | Last updated: August 13 2009 18:51

The popular US cash-for-clunkers programme may be drawing money from other consumer purchases and could also undermine future car sales, US economists have warned.

Motor vehicle and parts sales, down 8 per cent on the year, jumped 2.4 per cent from June, according to data from the US commerce department on Thursday, but other retail sales fell 0.6 per cent in July.
EDITOR’S CHOICE

“With income flows very constrained and household balance sheets over- leveraged, any incremental increase is likely to weigh on non-automotive sales,” said Joshua Shapiro, chief US Economist at MFR, a consultancy, noting that fading interest suggests current car sales are borrowed from the future.

“Anyone thinking about buying cars in the next several months might as well do it now when the government is giving away $4,500.”

Ford, whose small Focus saloon and larger Escape have proved popular under the scheme, on Thursday announced that it was increasing North American production to meet demand. General Motors is also considering following suit.

The cash-for-clunkers programme, in which buyers trade in old gas guzzlers for vehicles that consume less fuel and receive a rebate of up to $4,500 (€3,150, £2,700), was dubbed by Barack Obama, US president, “a much-needed boost” to the US economy.

After exhausting its $1bn funds in July, Congress last week allocated an extra $2bn to the programme. In total it is expected to fund up to 750,000 car purchases.

George Pipas, Ford’s sales analyst, said that dealers’ new-vehicle sales are currently “eye-poppingly high” compared to a year ago.

But Ford on Thursday rejected the suggestions that the scheme was drawing significant consumer spending from other items.

“This is a drop in the bucket compared to overall purchases of goods and services”,“This is exactly what fiscal stimulus is supposed to do,” said Ellen Cromwick-Hughes, Ford Motors’ chief economist. But a post-clunkers dip in car sales would come as the rest of the US stimulus is fading.

“It’s a nice success, but there’s a macroeconomic risk going forward,” said Joseph Brusuelas of Moody’s Economy.com. “[In] the first quarter of 2010, the stimulus will begin to wither, and consumption which would have otherwise occurred next year will have occurred in the second half of 2009.”

RandallNeighbour · 08-14-2009, 07:18 AM

I'm wondering why the gubbermint doesn't invite willing US citizens to go to New Orleans and Galveston and be paid to do demolition work on the hundreds of thousands of homes along the coast destroyed by Katrina and Ike.

Seems like this stimulus money could be better invested by cleaning up the mess instead of just taking old cars off the road. That could have been very easily accomplished by adding a clunker tax to any vehicle that is of a certain age or gets poor fuel economy.

Uh oh. My boxster is old and gets crappy mileage. I better be careful what I recommend.