Motor failure - how common REALLY?

[23109VC]

I've been scanning this site for a while. I've been looking into a third sporty car for the garage. I'm looking VERY hard at used boxsters. Also considering an s2k.

briefly toyed with the idea of an rx8 as they are dirt cheap and the rear seats woudl come in handy for a guy like me with three kids, but this car is a toy/weekend car that I will drive to work once in a while too...and on those trips, I rarely have kids with me.

anyway, on these forums I 've seen a lot of posts about motor failures. people saying "another one bites the dust" does not sit well with a potential used boxster buyer. then I see the bill for a new motor is pushing $10-15k and I cringe.

I can afford a used boxster in the 15-20k range. but NO way will I have the dough for a new motor. I mean I coudl borrow that money if I had to, but it woudl hurt.

are these posts just a concentation on the web of the unfortunate few who have had motor failures - or is this really somewhat common???

pricewise, I am looking to finance 15-20k. assuming i only spent 15k, at 5% over 60 months, I'd be paying about 300/month. in 5 years i own the car.

honda is doign a lease deal now on s2000s where I can lease a brand new 08 for nothign down except first months payment and my monthly would be just a hair under 400/month. like 390-395. that's with NO cap reduction. sign and drive. it's not the deal they advertise but i know a guy who just negotiated this deal. so $400/month would be my ONLY cost. i'd buy some tires and brakes and gas. but no motor failures or other $1000 visits to the shop.

i'm partial to the boxster. it's a better car to me. i love the look and sound. the s2000 is in some ways a compromise to me. it is very cramped and noisy. small trunk...

but the big $$$ repair bills worry me.

300/month over 5 years would be cheaper - in that at the end of 5 years, i'd own the car, and say that 15000 car is worth 6000-7000 at the end of the loan, i have a net worth asset - and i've spent under 10k. BUT repairs over the 5 years could add up to or exceed 6-7000? a motor failure plus other "normal" stuff woudl cost more than the price of the car, assuming 15k purchase price.

am i paranoid and these IMS failures are extremely rare horror stories.. OR if I am goign to purchase a 2000-2001 boxster or boxster S that has 50-75k miles on it - am I pretty much rolling the dice and I have a 10% chance, 20% chance, 30% chance, 50% chance, etc of having the motor crap out on me?

i posted earlier in a thread on true cost to own and some of you said to get the s2k if I worry about this so much. it's not that I want the s2k. believe me, i woudln't be here on this forum if I wasn't really interested in the s2k..and part of me wonders if in the end i'll just risk it and get one - beause I want one that much... but the $$ end of it is a concern.

my dad has a 2000 base, he is the second owner. bought it with 20k miles and now it has 75k. he's had hardly ANY problems with it. is that more the norm or is HE the lucky one?

it's hard to compare a used older car vs a new one (leased) then try to figure true cost to own comparos. the boxster would have to be maintaned and buy parts for if i got one with 50-75k miles on it..whereas a new leasede s2k would probably have literally NO mechanical issues and if it did, it's all warrantied.

hey - what is the oldest boxster / mileage I coudl get and STILL get a porsche or SOLID QUALITY third party warranty on it? i've seen a handful of used boxsters adertised for sale that have extended warranties that go quite long. if i recall correclty, i've seen 2001 or 2002 models claiming they are warranted into 2010 or 100k miles..making me think it WOULD be possible to buy aused one...and still have at least a couple years or "worry free" driving..if I found one with the warranty, or bought one on my own.

can I buy a 2002 boxster that has 65k miles and then buy a warranty on it..or will they say it's OUT of warranty and you can't add it? on former cars I remember thining i needed to buy the extended before the OEM warranty ran out. same true on a boxster?

[Brucelee]

I used to be a Porsche dealer and I am the co-owner of this site.

IMHO I would NOT own a used Boxster out of warranty. That is my personal choice, one that cannot be justifled or denied by DATA, which is simply not available.

As to the warranty availability, you have two basic ways to go. To be a Porsche extended warranty, you will have to buy a CPO car from a Porsche dealer.

Your other choice is an aftermarket warranty. The rules on these all vary, so check them out BEFORE you buy any Boxster.

And always get a PPI on any Boxster you are considering BEFORE you buy it.

Good luck. Do more searches on this site for some great buying tips BEFORE you buy.

[rick3000]

Brucelee pretty much covered everything that is recommend for new Boxster owners.

No one knows the frequency of engine failure, but I will say this. More people with problems post here, than people that don't have problems. In the lasy year 3 maybe 4 people have had an engine failure. Engine failures don't happen as much as they are discussed here, but they do happen.
Two relatively new members just had engine failures in the last few months.

[23109VC]

i think to feel fully at peace with the purchase of a used boxster, I'd want a warranty.

do you know how old of a car one can purchase and still qualify for a third party warranty?

say I find a sweet deal on a used 2000 or 2001 - can you get coverage on a car that old?

the CPO stuff is more than likely quite a bit out of my price range. 20k is as high as I want to go. I maybe could talk the wifey into 25k...but boy would I be in debt to her.. i can see the new jewelry and handbags now...

[rick3000]

Generally, most warranty places won't sell a warranty to a car that is over 10 years old.

[Adam]

Question for the original poster. You said that you are also considering an S2000 and Rx8. Assuming you also visit those forums are there ever any reports of engine failures on those vehicles or is that completely unheard of? Just curious.

[Lil bastard]

Motor failures in these cars happen... and at a higher rate than either of the other two cars you are considering - the S2K and the RX8.

Porsche has never released any data, but several ad hoc polls, on several forums, indicate it to be somewhere in the 15%-25% area (15 is probably too low and 25 probably too high). One service manager I met confirmed, that in his opinion, this is the correct range.

Earlier engines tend to fail for different reasons than newer models (RMS vs IMS). Stories about Sleeved engine failures in earlier cars persist but really have pretty much been weaned from the population of existing cars.

Cars over 25-30k mi. 'seem' more immune to the RMS issue than ones of lesser mileage, but that's no guarantee, there are documented failures at higher mileages as well, but fewer of them. IMS does not seem to be mileage dependent, the reported failures in these engines spans any range on the odo. The Tiptronic cars do tend to suffer less from RMS failures, probably because of having less direct contact with the crankshaft due to their torque converters, but still do not enjoy total immunity.

The 996s share the same fate with maybe a slightly higher incidence, albeit slightly, and I know that you were questioning these cars as well.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, just being realistic. If you can live with that 'Sword of Damocles' looming overhead, then the rest is a pretty great car.

It's easy to be swept up with the emotion of owning a Porsche and downplay the risks, but it's a disservice to you to put on the Happy Face mask and pretend that there's little or no risk.

I'd love to see you get the car, and even with a 25% failure rate, the odds are still in your favor. But, as a 'Family guy', you need to be informed.

All aside, EVERY used car is a crap shoot !! The best way of evening the odds is to be PATIENT - look at lots of cars, be OBJECTIVE - don't overlook minor faults because in the end, you'll pay for them, and be FLEXIBLE - don't zero-in on a specific model year or option package - get the best car you can find out there for the money you can spend, but always - STAY WITHIN YOUR BUDGET !!

In the end, you're not buying the car 'forever'. If you find one which turns out not to be the right one, sell it - even if that means repairing it 1st or taking a loss.

The one sure thing about used Porsches is that... there is NO sure thing !! Good Luck !!

[Adam]

Just to be clear, RMS leaks may be in the 25% failure range, but that is by no means an engine failure! It's a leaking seal! Engine failure that requires actual engine replacement is far far lower. Not trying to defend Porsche, but it seems like some consider an RMS leak to be a engine failure...that's completely wrong!

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Adam

Just to be clear, RMS leaks may be in the 25% failure range, but that is by no means an engine failure! It's a leaking seal! Engine failure that requires actual engine replacement is far far lower. Not trying to defend Porsche, but it seems like some consider an RMS leak to be a engine failure...that's completely wrong!

True... but not in all cases. I have a friend who owns an '04S which had a catastrophic RMS failure @ 3k mi. and required an engine replacement, and it's not the only insyance like this. Though I agree these are much fewer.

[Brucelee]

Again, the problem is two fold:

1-No one really knows what the failure rates is. To me, anything above 10% is appalling.

2-The cost of replacement is the problem. Replacing a Chevy v8 or Miata motor is trival compared to the Boxster.

Richard Kwei is getting a complete used motor for his Miata for half the cost of fixing a RMS leak.

Together, this makes a warranty needed IMHO.

[LoveBunny]

Would it even be possible, if he can get a warranty on the car, to have one cover the five years of his loan? I don't think they'll usually go that far out on a used car.

When I was in college and had a 944 I basically set aside a certain amount each month to save for future repairs.

[Quickurt]

My personal opinion is to take your time and find a certified car from a dealer that you can afford, even if it means doing what I did; waiting until I could afford one new enough to have a meaningful warranty.
I'm a bit older than you, well, hell, I take that back, I'm a bit older than dirt
but you are buying a third car as a toy. As hard as it is, listen to someone who learned alot the hard way, don't rush into a possible disaster.
Gotta have that always, and I mean ALWAYS came back to bite me.

[23109VC]

Originally Posted by Adam

Question for the original poster. You said that you are also considering an S2000 and Rx8. Assuming you also visit those forums are there ever any reports of engine failures on those vehicles or is that completely unheard of? Just curious.

to all you who have continued to respond to my posts - a big thank you.

to answer the above - i would say engine failure on the s2000s is practically non-existant. I think those things are about as bullet proof of a motor as you can have. I have never owned an s2000, but when i just graduated from law school and bought my "first" new car on my lowly gov't atty salary - i bought a 99 prelude SH. it had 200hp...VTEC...a lot like the s2000 only in a heavier car... i was 26 then, and drove that car HARD. i am NOT exaggerating when I saw I probably redlined the car every shift! okay, a little exaggeration, but I drove that thing hard. drove it from new to 55000 miles and sold it. it felt/drove like it did the day i bought it when i sold it.i think the honda vtec motors are pretty solid.

RX8s - different story. a fair amount of motor failures there. some flat out die, others experience power loss, or other odd problems and htey replace them. if you know much about rotaries - I do, as I used to have an rx7 way way back in high school - the motors are not really easy to work on. the way they are constructed, if a seal (such an apex seal - which is on the tips of the rotors) or a seal that lines the "pieces" of the housings, or a coolant leak develops - you pretty much have guaranteed a motor replacement - and to take the motor apart it MUST come out.... but you can get a brand new rotary engine, installed - for probably close to or under $3000. if you did have to go down the motor replacement route on an rx8 there are quite a few shops that can port them, beef up the rotors, seals, etc and make a more powerful and much more sturdy engine. the downside is rotaries are not that common so finding those shops is harder - and even the dealerships sometimes are clueless as to how to diagnose and fix problems.

bottom line - even an rx8 is more reliable in terms of flat out engine failure than the boxster. the s2000 is like a civic in terms of reliability.

the rx8 is a neat car. it has a very cool sound and a 9000 redline. but like the s2k it has no torque and it feels a tad slower than the s2k even at redline. i thin in a flat out drag race - which is not my goal here - but for sake of comparisons, the s2k would beat out the rx8 easily. the rx8s real strong point is that it is more livable than the s2k. more roomy even up front, rear seats give it that "pracitcality" that a 911 would have - nothing really practical, but you can stuff some bags or small kids back there for short trips. the rx8's dash reminds me a bit of the porsche - a big huge analog tach - the way it should be. very sporty feeling car. albeit a bit soft. the suspension allows too much body roll in stock form. the rx8 - if you added a set of coilovers or high performance shocks/springs/sway bars, with good tires woudl probably do a good job keeping up with the boxsters in the twisties. and you could stick two kids in teh back when you took it around town for a drive or to the store.

the big problem is that since this is a third toy car - i'm not really focused on getting something ultra practical. i have a brand new MDX as our "family" car. i also have an older, but well maintained and paid off beater for me to drive locally for short trips or to commute to/from work. it's an older boxy volvo... 130k on the clock but i have had it since almost new and have maintained it well. if you know those old true volvos - they go forever. my parens had one that went 500k... original motor and tranny! it's a T5 with a cat back exhaust and a suspension upgrade. IPD sway bars and it honestly is pretty fast. gobs of torque. it would blow a base model or S boxster off the line. in the turns it is an absolute pig and NO FUN. but it runs and runs, is paid for, and still looks good - and is a great commuter car.

the boxster or s2k, or rx8 would be purely for fun. i'd probably wind up using it part time to commute to work.

i've HONEST thought about selling my volvo - i could maybe get 5000 privatelyf or it and then just buying a new sedan. like an is350, 335, etc.. but i'd be spending much much more than 20k to get something that would be practical AND fun and reliable/new. i looked at the TL type S...a good compromise car...and good lease deals..but honestly, it just didn't get me excited. i dn't like my volvo..but the prospect of spending even 400-500/month on a lease for a car like that, or even an new is350....didn'tm ake me "want" to do it. i used to have a high hp volvo S60R...modded...it was as fast or faster than a stock E46 M3..b/c i overtook one and outran him on a straightaway at buttonwillow the one time i tracked it. chip, dp, exhaust, springs..blah blah blah... i got bored of it and sold it. i'd done the big hp sedan thing and it jsut doesn't excite me. i know what i really want is a small sporty car. i've drien s2000s, rx8s, and boxsters. of all of them, the one I realy really enjoyed the most was the boxster. i did enjoy and like both the s2k and rx8...but none of them had the same feel as the porsche.

i'm not blind to the financial realities though. i'm comfortable spending 15-20k, but that's about it. i do alright financially, but i'm also a married father of three working as a gov't lawyer. decent money, great pension, good benefits, but i'm not rich either. not the private practice high roller driving a 911 turbo. but i'm home at 5. life is all about trade offs right??

anyway. buying a used car as a toy is something i've decided to do - with approval of my CFO - the wife. but i agreed to the 15-20k limit. if i can find a nice used boxster in that range that I COULD warranty - maybe i'll do it.

i know in that price range i could get a 2005 S2000 with 20-35k miles still under factory warranty. the same rx8 of that vintage, fully loaded with nav, leather, full OEM body kit. is probably like 15-17k.

here are examples.:

RX8. cool color (at least on the rx8 it is) fully loaded. msrp was probably around 34-35k when new. with some negotiating, you'd be down to 15k or so.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=247223542&dealer_id=62875809&car_year=2005&model=RX8&num_records=100&systime=&make2=&start_year=2005&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MAZDA&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=92591&advanced=&end_year=2006&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=56


s2000

tons of these. you can probably make offers all day long all weekend long until someone gave their car away

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=247441003&dealer_id=62894735&car_year=2005&model=RX8&num_records=100&systime=&make3=&make2=HONDA&start_year=2005&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&model2=S2000&search_lang=en&make=MAZDA&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=2&sort_type=priceDESC&address=92591&advanced=&end_year=2006&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=52

BUT... NONE OF THESE are a boxster.

after having driven my dads around quite a bit - the feel and the sound and the overall experience is far more fun in the porsche.

i guess i need to take a long hard look at the budget and what I really want. i know i can find a nice boxster in my budget..but i may be nervious about repairs. it COULD be possible to find somoene selling an 00-01 or 02 that HAS AN EXTENDED warranty on it that is transferable..it won't last the full 5 years, but it might be there for a year or two to give me some peace of mind.

or wait a little bit longer before i buy.

[LoveBunny]

I was going to suggest getting rid of your daily driver and replacing it with the Boxster, but I'd hang on to that Volvo. My mom had a 1981 Volvo that ran forever and drove really well. She sold it when it was at least 20 years old for $2000. She didn't even have to try to sell it either. Some guy left her a note that he wanted to buy it.

Since you really want the Boxster, I say hold out for that. You could start saving money now and keep your eyes open. If it takes long enough to find a good one you might have enough saved up that you can buy a more expensive car than you had originally planned.

[Quickurt]

It looks to me, with a quick run through traderonline, that you can get a certified 2007 Boxster with 10k or under miles for a little under $40,000.
Follow this thinking. It has a factory warranty until 2013 and another 90,000 miles. What is that worth? With everything you are reading and studying, I'd say at least 10,000 dollars. Right?
With $5,000 down, your payments would be about $570, right? This for five years and this is the same length of time your warranty lasts, so no need for sweating an engine failure, no need for a big repair fund in the bank AND at the end of the five years, you have a 2007 Boxster that is payed for.
And on top of all that, you get to own and drive a Boxster for those five years.