Solstice vs Cayman?

[Tom Blue]

This has been a theme for several months with Pontiac. Comparing their vehicles to the great cars of the world. Finding some data point that outscores a basic great car and then making their overall comparison based on that one item. Several months ago when Pontiac initially came out with the GPX they stated that the GPX buried the Boxster with it’s incredible acceleration. I commented on a u-tube site where a Pontiac motor head had posted some hype from GM on the GPX that it was pathetic that Pontiac, the company that introduced the GTO had come down to these comparisons . I could not believe the responses I got from the pro Pontiac faction. Most of them incomplete sentences punctuated with vulgarities. I guess there are a lot of folks out there that will believe anything they see in an ad or TV.

[Sputter]

Are you basing this on first hand knowledge or just wild conjecture?
From what you wrote, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. (i'm being polite here).

Jim

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

It's a shame that Detroit, trying to keep up with the rest of the world, is always shooting themselves in the foot with all these models that don't cut the mustard. Have you seen how thin the metal body panels are on a Dodge? Not sure but I think GM still uses those cheap ass throttle body injection units. I believe their main problem is that the UAW is making them design with their hands tied behind their backs and their heads up their ass's. What I mean is the Union basically holds the big three hostage an threatens them with striking unless their over-inflated demands are met. With that, auto makers end up paying way more than the worker is worth for the job they do. The benefits package? Well we won't get into that.

And people wonder why Detroit can't produce a car that will keep up with the foreign models. That's easy to see why, to keep profit margins up for the investors and after paying the ransom from the UAW, they have to skimp on matrials and technology (which in the end equals quality) to keep the cars in a price range that the majority can afford.

What ever happened to loyalty? If workers treated their jobs like they were on a team and sacrificed themselves for that team I think we would produce a car that no one could touch. But since we don't have that I guess that's what they call "capitalism".

[Brucelee]

What ever happened to loyalty? If workers treated their jobs like they were on a team and sacrificed themselves for that team I think we would produce a car that no one could touch. But since we don't have that I guess that's what they call "capitalism".
__________________

It is a stretch to tie the issue of employee loyalty to an economic system called capitalism. Are you suggesting that those public employee strikes that occur all over socialist Europe are the result of loyal employees????

[Brucelee]

I have driven rental car versions of the G6, Aura, and Camry. I have to say I greatly prefered the American cars over the Camry. Better handling, quieter and with more omph (four cylinder camry vs 6 cylinder in GM cars.)

It is clear from the JD Power data that GM build quality is much better than it was and I think all the journalists would acknowledge that their newer cars are much better efforts.

IMHO.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Tom Blue

This has been a theme for several months with Pontiac. Comparing their vehicles to the great cars of the world. Finding some data point that outscores a basic great car and then making their overall comparison based on that one item. Several months ago when Pontiac initially came out with the GPX they stated that the GPX buried the Boxster with it’s incredible acceleration. I commented on a u-tube site where a Pontiac motor head had posted some hype from GM on the GPX that it was pathetic that Pontiac, the company that introduced the GTO had come down to these comparisons . I could not believe the responses I got from the pro Pontiac faction. Most of them incomplete sentences punctuated with vulgarities. I guess there are a lot of folks out there that will believe anything they see in an ad or TV.

It is a popular marketing technique. In some ways in can work, in others, it doesn't fool anyone. Again, the Soltice would better be compared to the Miata in terms of price and engines.

[Quickurt]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

It is a popular marketing technique. In some ways in can work, in others, it doesn't fool anyone. Again, the Soltice would better be compared to the Miata in terms of price and engines.

Putting Miata in the same sentence with Solstice reminded me of something. A good buddy trades in high line used cars and spends quite a bit of time at the southeast auctions. He said nearly every Miata that comes through the line is bid out of the ceiling by Pontiac dealers, so they can have one or two on the lot, right next to their long row of Solstices (Solsti?) They openly admit to him they do it to make it look like Miata owners are trading in on a Solstice. It is another common marketing technique, Brumos always has at least one late model Corvette and BMW prominently displayed on their used car lot and rediculously priced. Don't want to have to screw around picking up another.......

[Jaxonalden]

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

Your point is well taken. However, to be fair, Toyota had so many issues with the 08 Camry they just released an 09 model. Apparently, they had to do major revisions to the product to get the quality up.

My point simply is, for the money, many American cars have become demonstrably better. I rented a Saturn Aura with leather etc. and thought it was a very very nice car, esp for the dough.

[Sputter]

You can't turn it over on me.

I didn't claim to have the answers like you did.
I'm curious as to what facts you have to back up your assertion?
You don't like Unions? (in this case the UAW, the CAW in Canada). I guess you're saying that the UAW is the root cause of GM's issues?


So basically you have no numbers to back

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

[Tom Blue]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

Yes but in Brucelee"s defense, the US made vehicles are getting better. A coworked just purchased a Ford Edge and I have to admit that the interior and the exterior look great. I was impressed with the fit and quality of the interior and other aspects of the vehicle. This from a person who drove foreign cars for years, then bought an 84 Camaro, (this I admit only under an assumed name) which I kept for nine months before trading away and have not purchased an American made car since. Although I have driven American made company cars for more years than I care to admit so I have benchmark to measure. The Dodge I now drive although basicly a piece of junk, does seem to have a good 6 cyinder that can move when need be. Unfortunately only in a straight line. When will the US car makers wake up and learn that alot of us like a good handling car?

[Jaxonalden]

I'd love to get into world and domestic economics (especially China) and the politics of Unions, but there's not enough room or time tonight, and I'm on my why to D.C at 4am.

What I will say is that cars are going to be made cheaper and the cost will continue to rise. In 50 years what cars do you think will be getting restored and driven by car collectors? I don't think it will be anything built by Detroit.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

I'd love to get into world and domestic economics (especially China) and the politics of Unions, but there's not enough room or time tonight, and I'm on my why to D.C at 4am.

What I will say is that cars are going to be made cheaper and the cost will continue to rise. In 50 years what cars do you think will be getting restored and driven by car collectors? I don't think it will be anything built by Detroit.

Interesting point. Certainly, the collectors love the American iron from the 50s and 60s right now.

Time will tell I guess.

[Quickurt]

In fairness to everyone, in my opinion, which is not a claim to know anything or everything ( )........
I think we have two basic design criteria for American cars.
#1 is to be an American car as a completely different and unique vehicle from European cars. Large looking, large feeling, roomy and some level of posh interior and a cushy, floaty ride. The control and handling on this type American car is light years ahead of where they were just a decade ago. They are built specifically for those who DON'T WANT and DON'T LIKE a European car. Unfortunately, as more Americans drive and ride in todays top quality European cars, this market has shrunk and now 4.00 plus gasoline may have finished it.
#2 is to compete directly with European cars and here is where they've done too little for too long. I also believe, to a large degree, they have been trying to short convert designers of #1 into overnight designers of #2 and it has not worked. It may also be they have nothing to really offer European designers for attractive employment, or there is some other reason they are not getting top flight European designers.
As a qualifyer, I consider most Asian cars to be also a European STYLE car.
I believe, also, unions are a factor, but the union worker will do an equally good or bad job on whatever has been designed, considering how they are treated by a particular plant's management. Honda builds fine cars at Marysville, Ohio with UAW workers. Honda's blessing is they don't have a one hundred year history of conflict with the union.
All this being said, at one time the Big Three had every ability to make a car Porsche could only dream of, but decided not to. Don't ask me why, it's insanity to
have ignored this market until they had no other choice but to go after it.
Now that they are going after it, they don't want to actually consider what it really is car buyers like us want.
Personally I'd try to start where Dr. Porsche started. I'd take a small bore 4 cylinder, manual transmission FWD unit and do a fairly high tech material 1750 lb. mid engine car without many bells and whistles. Keep it simple, straight forward, handle like a Lotus and get at least 50 MPG as a commuter. In fact, rather than claiming to out Porsche a Porsche, I'd start a new class of car and ask why Porsche hadn't done it. I'd make sports/commuter cars. What better way to get people in 50 MPG cars than to make them fun as hell to drive?

[Brucelee]

Keep it simple, straight forward, handle like a Lotus and get at least 50 MPG as a commuter. In fact, rather than claiming to out Porsche a Porsche, I'd start a new class of car and ask why Porsche hadn't done it. I'd make sports/commuter cars. What better way to get people in 50 MPG cars than to make them fun as hell to drive?

Well said. I do think we are coming to that. One does not need a 500 HP car to enjoy driving. As you said, Porsche has strayed far away from the original concept. One could posit that Dr. Porsche would have found the current 911 turbo to be quite unacceptable.

I do think we are coming up to an era when we will see some fascinating and fun cars coming down the pike. That is why I love free markets and competition. The evolution is fun.

[limoncello]

I'd still like to see an MX-5 coupe. Nothing on the horizon at all, though.

Sports cars for today and the near (next 5 years) tomorrow?

How about a lightweight two seat convertible, weighs 2500 lbs. or LESS, front engine rear drive, good fit/finish, Miata handling, AND 35 mpg highway. Light, agile, efficient, high quality. Rear trunk big enough for a set of sticks.
In other words:
A Miata with Porsche/BMW build quality.
A Z3 with better handling, and lose a few pounds.
A modern, updated 944, lose a few.
A Solstice that a human can fit in, add handling, improve reliability.
A Triumph GT-6 that's reliable. (It was well under 2500 lbs. by the way, closer to 2000 and had 150 hp in non-US/emission screwed-up trim).
A 2002tii with two less seats, and a fastback shape.
An Alfa Romeo spyder/coupe built by the Japanese.

Maybe the Chinese will figure it out. (Here's your chance China! Help us out here!)

[Brucelee]

I had a z3 4 cylinder in stock once. The car was fun and got about 33 MPG at same speeds on the highway.

If that car was 300 lbs lighter, I think it would fit the bill.

I do still like the looks of the z3.

[Quickurt]

How about a 914 with a good, efficient 4 cyl. ?
I absolutely loved every 914 I had, except for that POC VW Type 4 engine and the POC VW brakes.
I've always wanted to build a street car, so here's the idea.
Do you know what a 908/3 was? It was a special Porsche for hill climbs and the Targa Florio.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/pic.php?imagenum=19&carnum=815

Build this as a tubular space frame with a light fiberglass/foam composite body and use Fiat 124 Windshield/convertible frame and top. The Fiat windshield frame was polished aluminum and the two side frames simply went through the cowl and bolted to the side of the cowl at the door openings with a nice rubber seal at the frame/cowl interface. They took about fifteen minutes to remove, replace the glass and re-install. The tops were very simple, very light, very inexpensive and worked quite easily. Use a Honda, or take your pick, (VW TDI?) FWD drivetrain with instrument panel and ECU, mid engine with the standard cable shifting. Honda McPherson Strut suspension/brakes/wheels all around.
Target weight? 1300 to 1500 lb.
Take it to track days and remove the windshield and top.
1500 lb. with a 1.7 150 HP 4 cylinder/5 spd? Sounds close to 280 Hp with 2900 lb.? 50 MPG? Easily. My wife's Civic with 1.7/5spd gets 40 MPG for her commuting and it gives 38 MPG with me driving at 80 to 85 on a trip.

I think the Solstice looks cool. I have never seen one in real life but the photos look nice. It is not a Porsche of course and should not be compared to one but it still might be an ok car especially for a female. However, if you live somewhere that requires a front license plate then the look is ruined.

[Perfectlap]

parked next to one at Costco the other day. Looks nice and the layout seems like it would be fun to drive. Some have had success autocrossing these so I don't think its in the same boat as the Crossfire or SLK.I tip my hat off to any car company that comes up with a new design. The Saturn is cool too. too bad all these guys are going to be bankrupt pretty soon. Sad i grew up in Pontiacs...seems like another life ago.

[Wret]

I had my eye on the Solstice/Sky duo long before they were released. The pure sports car looks and available turbo-charged models got my attention. One of the first reviews I read said that they were not too bad but for the same money one could get a great used boxster, and that's exactly what I did.