Lost the tail end twice .. scared ****************less - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

vijen6 · 10-02-2006, 05:19 PM

Ok. Twice this happened on my 'new to me' S.

From a dead stop. Stop sign / red light, whatever, I accelerate slowly and make a LEFT turn .. never going over 3krpm. All the sudden, after the turn, the car fishtails for a split second, sliding left once, then right once, then i counter steer and it straightens out instantly.

Both time that happens it has been on slow left turns from dead stop. I drive the car hard on turns before and that has never happened. Now i am very very scared to turn hard in it, which defeats the purpose of having a porsche in the first place.

Just got two new Falken 452s on the front. Rear running Falken ST115 with about 40% tread life left, but I doubt its tires.

After the way I have driven this car on some corners, without even so much as a screech from the tires, I cant see it breaking traction at 30-35 mph on a soft left turn.

Any thoughts?

BTW, I have a 2002 Boxster S with 37k miles if anyone was wondering

Sammy · 10-02-2006, 05:30 PM

If you are truly losing the rear end without any "spirited" driving than you have something bent or loose in your suspension somewhere. As odd as this may sound check both front and rear. If nothing appears out of whack make sure you check the tightness of the bolts/nuts. I had a front stabilizer bar link come loose and had to be retorqued. You can find the torque specs in a maintenance manual (I bought mine off of amazon.com).

I had a front wheel drive car that one of the lower rear suspension members had been bent and it had tendencies like you mentioned. I would be going straight and at the right speed/frequency the rear would want to swing out. It was weird!

If it is coming around smoothly, meaning you don't notice a jolt, I definitely think something is bent.

10-02-2006, 05:32 PM

Hi Vijen6, did the 2002 S have PSM (Porsche Stability Management)?

What are your tire pressures? Maybe 1/2 pound to 1 pound pressure adjustments can help you get more bite. Start with 31-32 up-front and 35-37 in the rear. Make 1/2 pound adjustments, lower, in the rear, and see if that makes an improvement.

I don't think your Falkin tires are Porsche approved. Maybe not a good idea to run 2 different tire types either.

You should participate in some Autocross or DE events with your local PCA and improve your driving skills too. This is not a slam on you, so please don't misinterpret my suggestion. In fact, I need to do this some day too!

10-02-2006, 05:35 PM

Sammy's suggestions sound good too.

Maybe your alignment is way out too????

Sammy · 10-02-2006, 05:40 PM

Bmusatti brings up a good point. It could be some weird electronic thing at that point take it to a dealer and get it fixed.

He also has a good point about learning to drive near the vehicles handling limits.

Chalk two good ideas up to Bmusatti!!!

oversteerdawg · 10-02-2006, 05:40 PM

Your probably hit some oil in the road or a wet paint stripe. There is no way that the car will oversteer in that fashion. Heck, I wish it were a little easier to get the tail in on the action.

Sammy · 10-02-2006, 05:47 PM

Sorry for all the tidbits, but start with your right rear first. Take a close look at it to see if you have "funky toe" in the right rear (compare left to right). If you don't notice anything, jack it up and "wiggle" the wheel to see if anything is loose or makes funny noises.

I'm saying right rear because it would take the most weight during a left turn and you say when it comes around it straightens out.

CJ_Boxster · 10-02-2006, 06:09 PM

Check your engine bay....factory may have accidentally installed a Carrera GT drivetrain.

insite · 10-02-2006, 06:10 PM

i agree w/ sammy. it sounds like excessive rear toe. this can be horrifying in the rain; get the alignment checked asap.

Rail26 · 10-02-2006, 06:35 PM

I actually found the stoplight camera footage...

http://www.guzer.com/videos/car_wheels_fall_off.php

vijen6 · 10-02-2006, 06:51 PM

Thanks for the replies guys. I will jack it up when I can get my to my friend's house, and wiggle the right wheel.

I dont have PSM, so I dont think its electrical issue. Unless they forgot to install the button in my cabin. =]

Both tires pressure / alignments are fine as I had them checked out when I had my tires changed. Also have a life time free adjustment warrantee on it from Firestone.

They also assured me that as long as both the wheels on the same axle has the same tire, I should have no problem running different tires on front / back. As long as they are different on different axle, and same on same axle.

Hopefully, its just a patch of oil, as it was a very quick fishtail, and barely crossed the lane markers when it did fish, but it still scared the hell out of me as I did not expect it and it happened twice.

Thank god I didnt hit anyone / anything.

10-02-2006, 06:57 PM

Did you say Firestone!

You might want to re-think this decision. I'll let others chime in now.

vijen6 · 10-02-2006, 07:07 PM

LOL . i am not running firestone tires, just went there for the alignment since it was the cheapest with life time warrantee.

Putting my flame retardant jacket on right now.

10-02-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijen6

LOL . i am not running firestone tires, just went there for the alignment since it was the cheapest with life time warrantee.

Putting my flame retardant jacket on right now.

Vijen6, I know what you meant. I know you are running Falkin tires.

Here are 2 pieces of advice:

1) Porsche and Firestone stores not good. Firestone and Ford is fine!

2) Cheapest today can be very expensive tomorrow.

insite · 10-03-2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijen6

Thanks for the replies guys. I will jack it up when I can get my to my friend's house, and wiggle the right wheel.

I dont have PSM, so I dont think its electrical issue. Unless they forgot to install the button in my cabin. =]

Both tires pressure / alignments are fine as I had them checked out when I had my tires changed. Also have a life time free adjustment warrantee on it from Firestone.

They also assured me that as long as both the wheels on the same axle has the same tire, I should have no problem running different tires on front / back. As long as they are different on different axle, and same on same axle.

Hopefully, its just a patch of oil, as it was a very quick fishtail, and barely crossed the lane markers when it did fish, but it still scared the hell out of me as I did not expect it and it happened twice.

Thank god I didnt hit anyone / anything.

for what it's worth, a firestone shop is the reason i had excessive toe that wrecked two sets of tires (figured it COULDN'T be the alignment, they'd JUST DONE IT!) go to a better alignment shop and have them check the toe.

denverpete · 10-03-2006, 06:16 AM

Sorry, but something's a bit "fishy" about this whole thing. The keys are the fact that you state it happened AFTER you completed the turn and that it fishtailed left on a left. If you took the turn too quickly you would naturally expect the vehicle to break loose during the turn and fishtail right. If the vehicle truly fishtailed AFTER you completely finished your turn then you have a serious suspension problem (which I doubt) because then it could happen at any moment. That being said, I have to vote for driver error. BTW, I've done this as well so it's not an indictment on your driving abilities. Well, maybe it is - but then it'll be true for both of us....

So, here's my hypothesis on what happened. In all likelihood the left turn was fairly long and required you to turn in a bit at the end to stay in your lane/avoid cars in the other left turn lane. You were probably first in line so right near the end you gunned it a bit - not floored it - but added some throttle. After the "turn in" there's always a bit of overcorrection (front wheels swing right slightly) - combine that with a bit of throttle and the rear of the vehicle breaks loose giving you a left fishtail on a left hand turn.

My advice? Be very careful about adding heavy throttle when making sharp turns particularly with water or sand on the road. When a Boxster breaks the rear end it seems like there is no warning - at least compared to most cars. With a bit of time and practice, however, you can actually feel when it wants to break loose.

z12358 · 10-03-2006, 07:00 AM

vijen6, you got a lot of good suggestions in the thread.
This is what I would do:
1. Since the incidents happened at relatively low speed, find an empty parking lot somewhere and try to replicate the behavior by changing the radius and the speed of the turns. Or if the road where it first happened is deserted (say, at an early Sunday morning) and there's plenty of safe space for a run-off, go there and try to take that same turn again few more times, each time with increased speed.
2. If fishtailing still occurs where it shouldn't, take the car to a good alignment shop and check the alignment.
3. If the alignment checks OK, and it still happens, take it to a good mechanic to check everything, starting with the suspension.
4. If everything checks OK with the car, the culprit may be your driving. Go to a DE event organized by the local PCA chapter and see if there's anything you can learn. I learned quite a bit, and I considered myself to be a pretty good driver.

This is the best I could come up with.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

NickCats · 10-03-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

You should participate in some Autocross or DE events with your local PCA and improve your driving skills too. This is not a slam on you, so please don't misinterpret my suggestion. In fact, I need to do this some day too!

bmussatti,

You and I and Sammy definitely need to meet for some Autocross next year !

I had no idea how well the Box handled until I actually saw it pushed to it's limits.

Sammy is a pro and was so helpful ! We definitely need to hook up next year.

I would love to try a DE as well, either Blackhawk or Road America....

Nick

vijen6 · 10-03-2006, 11:31 AM

Pete, thanks for the analysis. That might VERY much be what happened. Both of the time, I was first in line, long left turn, added a bit of throttle at the end, but far from 'gunning' it.

It could very well be driver skill. No doubt, and I take absolutely no offense from that as I know my skill could be improved 1000% with some driving classes / training. I have been looking at Skip Barber classes for quite a while but without the budget to really take one.

I really appreciate everyone's advice and will try all your advices and update where I can. Thanks again guys, this is a great forum.

Sammy · 10-03-2006, 12:17 PM

NEXT YEAR??? Heck, there's one at the end of this month in Joliet and I may be looking into a Milwaukee event in a couple weeks... I have to get my fix in before the season ends.

If you guys can make it, Joliet and Milwaukee typically are bigger events 150+ cars and there have been some awesome cars and drivers at the ones I've been to (this means I got my butt handed to me).

Looking forward to driving the front wheel variety this weekend with you NickCats!

BTW - GO BEARS!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickCats

bmussatti,

You and I and Sammy definitely need to meet for some Autocross next year !

I had no idea how well the Box handled until I actually saw it pushed to it's limits.

Sammy is a pro and was so helpful ! We definitely need to hook up next year.

I would love to try a DE as well, either Blackhawk or Road America....

Nick