IMS Fix

[mikefocke]

Tool kits are frequently available on eBay (Search " LN IMS tool kit"). Just now 4 of them. Be sure of the one you get has all the parts and is for the bearing you intend to use. After use, sell it on.

[Gelbster]

Originally Posted by WorkInProgressK

I would have kept it sealed with grease. In the end, all of the "lubrification in the bearing" is mostly used as corrosion protection and cooling. Splash will work fine. Bearings deteriorate when they pit so when people stop driving their car. .

Really ?
How will splash help a bearing that is sealed ?The cumulative wisdom of the IMSB world is the outer seal was the cause of much of he problem. Ditto the mainshaft and pinion bearing in the G86 that you allude to.
I ask because of the Hippocratic oath we should take when giving advice. "First,do no harm". If you have enough evidence to refute the cummulative wisdom of the experts, we're all ears & eyeballs.

[Gelbster]

Mike makes a great suggestion because these LN kits are rare in Europe. A canny Scot could actually make a profit on the import,use and resale of a complete kit ?
Yes, he could probably buy a k/o kit from Alibaba but it's resale value would be questionable.
The links to one rather non-tech U.K. Porsche site made dismal reading. Lots of snippy commentary,little technical content. Did not seem to be a group that did their own mechanical work or read beyond their own group. Piston Heads is more tech oriented?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Mike makes a great suggestion because these LN kits are rare in Europe. A canny Scot could actually make a profit on the import,use and resale of a complete kit ?
Yes, he could probably buy a k/o kit from Alibaba but it's resale value would be questionable.
The links to one rather non-tech U.K. Porsche site made dismal reading. Lots of snippy commentary,little technical content. Did not seem to be a group that did their own mechanical work or read beyond their own group. Piston Heads is more tech oriented?

I stopped reading when the suspect engine didn't have much on the magnetic drain plug before doing the IMS, which would imply the sump was not dropped and a proper pre qualification completed. If I had a nickel for every blown engine that was initially blamed on the IMS and later confirmed to have been from another fault, I could retire early............

[WorkInProgressK]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Really ?
How will splash help a bearing that is sealed ?The cumulative wisdom of the IMSB world is the outer seal was the cause of much of he problem. Ditto the mainshaft and pinion bearing in the G86 that you allude to.
I ask because of the Hippocratic oath we should take when giving advice. "First,do no harm". If you have enough evidence to refute the cummulative wisdom of the experts, we're all ears & eyeballs.

I was stating"either or" no seal with splash or seal with grease. These bearings are called "anti-friction bearing" and yes the cumulative wisdom is just fear mongering and people are making money on this. The real issue is people not using their cars causing their bearing to pit from corrosion. Without pitting the bearing would not wear in the cars useful life.
Out of the machinery's Handbook or bible to most Machinist and Mechanical Engineers.


Picture of pitting, from google search.


Here is some reference, maybe I should charge for doing some research on the subject? Btw I have owned my "porsche" for 1 year now so new to this fear, but my hobbies and daily job allow me to analyse it a little further.

[356Guy]

Well its either one or the other....grease lube or splash oil lube. Sealed grease lube bearings with some oil contamination is not a normal lubrication method. The problem is compounded when you are using contaminated oil due to infrequent oil changes, short driving trips, etc.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by WorkInProgressK

I was stating"either or" no seal with splash or seal with grease. These bearings are called "anti-friction bearing" and yes the cumulative wisdom is just fear mongering and people are making money on this. The real issue is people not using their cars causing their bearing to pit from corrosion. Without pitting the bearing would not wear in the cars useful life.
Out of the machinery's Handbook or bible to most Machinist and Mechanical Engineers.


Picture of pitting, from google search.


Here is some reference, maybe I should charge for doing some research on the subject? Btw I have owned my "porsche" for 1 year now so new to this fear, but my hobbies and daily job allow me to analyse it a little further.

Which does nothing to explain why cars that are daily drivers, and driven hard, were some of the first to show the problem.

[Gelbster]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I stopped reading when the suspect engine didn't have much on the magnetic drain plug before doing the IMS, which would imply the sump was not dropped and a proper pre qualification completed. If I had a nickel for every blown engine that was initially blamed on the IMS and later confirmed to have been from another fault, I could retire early............

Worse is an engine when they replace the IMSB ,discover other problems in that process, slap it together w/o addressing any other problem and flip the car.
I bought one !
The only reason I commented earlier was to alert noobs not to follow the 'advice' given when it contradicts expert(not me) experience.

[Smallblock454]

Out of the machinery's Handbook or bible to most Machinist and Mechanical Engineers.

One question: how old is this book?

And one idea that seems to be supressed from the market by - i don't know who.



Regards, Markus

[WorkInProgressK]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Which does nothing to explain why cars that are daily drivers, and driven hard, were some of the first to show the problem.

I don't believe that is correct. Everything I read on the subject its people who didn't drive the cars hard that had the problem occur to them.

The book is from 2004. So those who made the boxster had access to it:P.


Oh I love that plug idea. Cheapest solution out there. Only thing is to put a pin hole to allow pressures to balance preventing the plug to pop out if the situation allowing it arise.

https://documents.mrosupply.com/product_documents/10/100KSF/lubrication.pdf

A more recent document I found on the World Wide Web.

[Gelbster]

It is many years old and Casper seem to have disappeared.
The Solution seems to be the only IMSB with a plug. I suspect it may be patented - otherwise the roller bearing kit guys would have included it. I thought of doing a homebrew version but could not find a "freeze plug" the correct size. Imagine pressing one that was slightly too large int place...... With a 52041RS bearing, the problem is solved?or 62041RS

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

One question: how old is this book?

100+ years old, with many various Editions/Owners obviously, but essentially the same concepts bud. Fascinating literature

Edit: sorry, to be precise it is 125 years old (https://www.amazon.com/Machinerys-Handbook-Collectors-First-Replica/dp/0831133708)

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by WorkInProgressK

I don't believe that is correct. Everything I read on the subject its people who didn't drive the cars hard that had the problem occur to them.

The first cars to suffer IMS failures were daily drivers still under warranty.

Well we just pulled a dual row IMS out of a 2001 986, one owner car with just under 11,000 miles on it, or about 700 miles a year. The bearing (balls, races, and cages) was absolutely pristine and without any signs of pitting or other wear, after being basically parked for 16 years. And this is only one of dozens we have seen this way.

Sorry, but there is a problem with your theory............

IMS failure is much more complicated that just having one simple cause.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by WorkInProgressK

Oh I love that plug idea. Cheapest solution out there. Only thing is to put a pin hole to allow pressures to balance preventing the plug to pop out if the situation allowing it arise.

It is totally unnecessary, as well as counter productive, to put a hole in shaft plug such as the IMS Solution uses; the other end (oil pump side) vents the tube.

[JayG]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I stopped reading when the suspect engine didn't have much on the magnetic drain plug before doing the IMS, which would imply the sump was not dropped and a proper pre qualification completed. If I had a nickel for every blown engine that was initially blamed on the IMS and later confirmed to have been from another fault, I could retire early............

Please don't do that and leave us!!
Your knowledge and help is incredible

[Smallblock454]

The only solution is to THINK!

Regards, Markus

[Steve Tinker]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

The only solution is to THINK!

Ha Markus, Markus, Markus... I just wonder just how many thinking hours have already been consumed over this particular problem??

Especially when it happens to the you.
You would have spent many hours thinking:

"why me Lord" or

"why the hell did I buy this damned thing in the first place" or

"how the hell am I going to afford to pay for this" or

"my roller is worth HOW MUCH?" or

"I wish I had attended Raby's engine assembly class".

[WorkInProgressK]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

IMS failure is much more complicated that just having one simple cause.

Obviously, but the longer time goes by the more one failure method start showing. The first ones could have been related to production and being under designed(single vs dual row). Now its lubrication and corrosion. You say you guys removed a pristine bearing, did you test the bearing under load? What if it had pitting that couldn't be seen with the naked eye? Or the owner changed the oil every 6 months regardless of mileage. You are right about causes, but ownership's have a lot to do with the state of the car.

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

It is totally unnecessary, as well as counter productive, to put a hole in shaft plug such as the IMS Solution uses; the other end (oil pump side) vents the tube.

Isn't the pump side sealed? That's why there is a proposed solution to drill a little hole to allow oil to sneak past pushing everything towards the Aft IMS bearing?

JFP, I know you have a lot of knowledge and may be making a living maintaining these cars. I am just seeing this ownership as a nice car with nice dynamics that is overrun by fear, because it's a "premium vehicle" with premium cost. Finding cheap effective solution is my job and I like sharing my mechanical knowledge.

I don't mind having a problem with a theory, given the chance and money anything can become a fact. At the moment, that isn't a possibility.

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

Ha Markus, Markus, Markus... I just wonder just how many thinking hours have already been consumed over this particular problem??

Especially when it happens to the you.
You would have spent many hours thinking:

"why me Lord" or

"why the hell did I buy this damned thing in the first place" or

"how the hell am I going to afford to pay for this" or

"my roller is worth HOW MUCH?" or

"I wish I had attended Raby's engine assembly class".

As you might know: every second counts.

Besides that: maybe more than you might think. And maybe, but just maybe: i'm not a guy that tries to patent every stupid idea so it's not worth to think any longer. Also i'm not a guy that tries to fear people and make money out of it. Nice business model by the way. But not my kind of style.

And best if all: i've seen a bunch of disassembled M96 and M97 engines in person.

Regards, Markus

[Duezzer]

I have had many vehicles that have a chance that the motor will fail in, all these had inherent issues from factory. Some were cam chain issues, some were valve train issues, some were oiling issues, some were crank bearing issues - They all had things that were just a bit wonky with them.
If you go onto the sites for those engines there is much less fear mongering. All these vehicles would take about $6-12k to replace to motor.

I suspect because these are Porsche's that this happens - or people think they have a fix and want to help others (or fill their pockets)

I have read a lot of the UK/EUR forums and the main statement is these are not the best built motor but if you take the outer seal off the IMS bearing your failure rate plummets.

Besides doing that one should really look at doing a tear down and full rebuild with a stronger bearing system.

I do not know what the answer is but I do know I have a car with a motor reliability issue.

I drive it - I love it - some days I worry about it

I am getting to the point where I will no longer be reading anything about IMS bearing - It is starting to become........ irritating.

Anyone look at increasing the oil pump output? Wonder if that would help? How would one increase the oil pump output?

Oh God - now I am in on it.

Lord save us all.