which ims bearing upgrade
 

Ok guys, so ive finally decided to do the bearing upgrade on my base 986 1999 model. My only problem now is deciding which one to go with. Any of you guys have any experience of the different solutions out there. Eternal fix seems to be getting more and more popular,my concern is that its only a single row,and although they offer a spacer for the dual row, I dont know if it would be a good idea to go to a single row,from my present double row. Then there's the DOF system from pedro, which ironically he suggests using a steel bearing as opposed to LN's ceramic version. Then of course I could go with just LN's ceramic upgrade without additional oil supply. My heart says DOF,but I'm sure no expert. Any suggestions greatly appreciated,thanks. Btw,since ill be changing my clutch, should I go with a performance clutch? I dont track the car,i like some hard driving,but some people say that clutch pedal might become harder, so I'm guessing maybe not too good for street driving?

If the car has its original engine, it is a dual row. I would unequivocally recommend the LN dual row bearing without any oil feed system over the other options you mentioned, based upon years of experience install ingthem; they simply work and do not fail.

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471881]If the car has its original engine, it is a dual row. I would unequivocally recommend the LN dual row bearing without any oil feed system over the other options you mentioned, based upon years of experience install ingthem; they simply work and do not fail.[/

As far as I know they still need looking at after certain miles,no?
Are there any of their bearings that have ever failed or not?
How about LN's bearings with dof? Just asking

[QUOTE=boxster;471894] Last I saw, dual row replacements were at an estimated 75,000 miles.

LN has never had a dual row unit fail to my knowledge, and the handful of single rows that failed were traced to improper installation techniques.

The LN bearing does not need an oil feed, oil mist inside the crankcase is more than enough lubrication, as demonstrated by nearly 20K successful installations. The DOF ads unnecessary complications and has been known to introduce other problems.

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471895] Yeah like oil starvation from where the DOF takes its supply eh! I dont use the car much,and that's one of my concerns,as it is claimed that "garage queens" tend to suffer from the problem more. Do you know if LN bearings will also suffer with cars not being used much,or will that problem just be with original bearings? My car has 72k miles,so if they last 75k miles,that will be pretty good for me,��

[QUOTE=boxster;471899] As I mentioned earlier, I am unaware of anyone having any type of issue with the LN dual row under any conditions, high use or garage queens. If you are really concerned, and have the funds for it, LN is going to release a dual row "IMS Solution" kit which replaces the ball bearing IMS with a solid bearing that will outlive the rest of the car.

The bearing is immersed in oil when the car is sitting level with the engine off. Change the oil frequently, use good oil, and when you are ready to change the clutch you can worry about the IMS again. As a garage queen, how long will it take for the car to reach 75k more miles? Will you even still have the car then?

JFP, first time I've seen the 75k figure. Where did it come from? Last time I talked to Charles it was his thinking it was even more. It may be he is just being conservative again?

75K was the last published number I have seen from Charles and that was some time ago, perhaps it is even higher now. http://imsretrofit.com/service-intervals/

Exactly,with the amount of road use I do in it, I think I wont live to see another 75k miles in it,lol! So looks like a pretty safe bet!

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471915] That would be the perfect solution then for sure. Do you know when they plan to release it?

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471915] Just looked at the"FAQ" section on their website and it says that they do not plan to introduce the ims solution to fit dual row bearings!��

[QUOTE=boxster;471921] That has changed, Jake Raby commented on it becoming available a month or two ago on a thread here. Jake is already installing them at his shop.

The demand for the dual row version of the IMS Solution was finally great enough to make a run of them to be distributed.

Yes, we have been installing them here at Flat 6 for a while now. The site still says they are not available, because they are not outside my facility, YET. Distributors are still getting the pieces in their systems, and they should start getting units into inventory by summer 2016.

The ONLY reason the dual row version was not produced, was demand from distributors who felt the older cars would not be worth the expense. After 3 years of IMS Solution sales, that changed, and the distributors started asking for the units, because they had more demand for it. Newer owners of the older cars have been the driving force behind this.

BTW- All Classic single row IMSBs from LN are a 50K mile product. The Classic Dual row, and the single row pro (dual row that fits in the single row shaft) are both 75K mile items.

The IMS Solution has a lifetime expectancy, as it has only one moving component, eliminating at least 11 other wear components from the IMSB.

If the OP (boxster) has any reservations regarding the LN dual row ceramic upgrade, I fitted mine way back in 2010 - I must have been one of the first in Australia to take the plunge. While not cheap (about $3,500 at the time).
I had past experience with ceramic bearings in large (1.2Mw) electric motors which, with their standard SKF steel ball / roller bearings, were giving temperature overheating problems under continuous heavy loads. We did a lot of investigative experiments with various lubricants and bearing combinations but finally decided on ceramic's. The overheating and wear (brinelling) never occurred again.
As far as I am concerned, you cannot go wrong with the LN ceramics....

That's great news to hear. Will I be able to purchase it before summer through you perhaps? I was thinking of upgrading my ims,as I am constantly thinking about it,and I just want to get it over and done tbh.

That is awesome news. My concern as I said before is that I dont use the car much, and since statistically those are the type of cars that suffer the most I don't know if it will be the same for th LN bearings. Will direct oil feed help with the ceramic bearings or is it enough to install just the bearings without additional oil feeds. You could also buy just the grooved hex of the eternal fix that goes on the other end of the intermediate shaft so that the bearing gets direct oil. Will that help with LN's type of bearings or it won't make a difference since they don't suffer from heat fatigue as much as steel bearings.

No - one of the ceramic bearing's biggest attributes is that it requires only a small amount of lubrication (the individual balls are as hard as he knockers of hell) & certainly the oil mist caused by the rotating masses of timing chains, crankshaft, cams etc. is enough. Actually, too much oil can cause "skidding" of the balls in the race.
Don't overwork this - as JFP and Raby say, keep good quality, clean oil in your engine and you wont have to worry about bearing failure. Just make sure the person who installs the new assembly in Malta is experienced in the LN IMS installation procedures.....

Hehe,that is THE biggest problem I will have, because I asked many boxster owners around and none of them have had their Ims bearing replaced, some of them don't even know what an ims bearing is, (I think I envy them for that actually), so I cant ask anyone where they had it done. I told my mechanic about it, he never replaced any ims bearings,I showed him the pelican book that I bought and he said that if I get him the removal tool he shouldn't find problems replacing it. I asked a couple other mechanics and still none of them replaced any ims bearings. So I'm hoping that my mechanic will manage to do the job properly. Are there any issues with replacing if, are there any "dangers" of not fitting it correctly?

On your website it says that its either 75k miles or 6 years for the dual row. As I said before,I dont think ill be doing 75k miles in the car in my lifetime,since u dont use it much! Will it have to be something I will have to change every six years, even though the bearing might have 20 k miles on it? Do the bearings also suffer like the original ones on so called garage queens?

I had the dual row in my '99 Boxster changed in 2012 and it has 32K miles on it. I read up on the bearing before having it installed and what was being advertised, at that time, was a recommended change at 50K miles. The statistics, though, indicated ceramic bearings outlasted steel by a 5:1 ratio. What I've never understood, or found an answer for, is what is the starting point for the ratio of 5:1? If my OEM bearing had 84K miles on it and was still in good shape does that mean 420K miles? If it is 5:1 what do I need to change the LN at 50K? Perhaps someone can explain the reasoning.

Also,maybe someone can enlighten me regarding my engine. I read somewhere that if you have an x on the engine no,than the engine might have been changed by the factory. My engine number is M96/2065x14718. Does that mean my engine had been changed at one point?

Beware, the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error. Better to use the LN instructions if doing an LN bearing.

BTW, the tools are expensive. Make sure your mechanic understands that in the quote he gives you. There is a ready market for used tool sets too so he can keep them for the next job or sell them on.

Whichever bearing is selected as a replacement, it is only as good as the Installer.
Why? - If you study the Installation Instructions for any LN product ,you soon realize how critical the Installer skill level is.It is not that their product is difficult.It is that LN really go to great lengths to ensure the installation is correct and successful.No detail is ignored. The lengthy Instructions are full of imperatives.
Other diy IMSB's may be just as critical but the Installation Instructions are often inadequate.
Probably a good idea to:
1. differentiate between diy and Pro (LN Approved)installed products.
2. find a local qualified installer & discuss.LN have a list.
The Pro Installer route may seem expensive until you understand how easy it is to screw up an IMSB replacement and how expensive the consequences of that mistake(s) are.
Yes, you can be successful with a DIY IMSB ,but it requires a meticulous standard of work that the average shade-tree-mechanic seldom rises to. For example freezing the parts and tools,buying the microencapsulated bolts, loosening the correct crankcase-half bolts, effective counter-stay and valve train locking,surgical cleanliness,correct tools for RMS install ....
Even the "smart guys" screw up :'the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error'
We discussed this wiith Wayne and he did say they would correct this in their website. It is better, as Mike said to just read one set of Instructions and follow them to the letter. Linked for your convenience here:
http://imsretrofit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IMS-Retrofit-Instructions-and-Waranty-Form.pdf

One word: Caution. LN goes on their experience with the bearings, not pat ratios.

I know, I will have to buy the tools in not sure he'd want to buy them off me though! I'll try selling them online then.

Wow, those are really detailed instructions! I must admit I had never seen LN's instructions before,only pelican's.as I said before,thats THE biggest problem o have,the mechanic. Where I live, there are no specialized Porsche mechanics, i would gladly go to one if there was,but to most mechanics here, the ims bearing is alien territory,so i was hoping that my mechanic, who is quite good,but still has no experience with ims bearings,would be able to do the job for me. The last thing i want is for my ims bearing to still be in ok condition,meaning it would have given me many more miles of use, and just because I want peace of mind and go ahead with the retrofit,id have an engine catastrophe just because of incorrect bearing installation. Damn,its times like these i feel jealous of people who have no idea what an ims bearing is!! So, what youre telling me is that because there are so many mistakes a rookie can make during his first ims bearing installation,its not worth doing it at all? Isn't some basic mechanics common sense enough for this job? I really dont know who to turn to in this instance!

Thanks for the link. I had read something already about the letters AT being rebuilt engines,but I don't have AT, I just have an X as a letter in between the other numbers. Does that also mean a rebuilt engine? I need to know so that ill know which bearing to order. I think I read something about an x being at the end of the vin number,but mine is in the middle, so not sure.

The mechanic, who did mine, is an indy shop and it was his first install. I watched the entire installation and made a video for him. At the time he was not an LN approved mechanic but LN didn't have a problem selling him the bearing or the tools. When the bearing and tools arrived, with the instructions, the removal tool was different than the tool in the instructions so he called LN to clarify what should be done. My OEM IMS was returned to LN, as they asked, but they claim they have no record of it and I haven't pursued the matter. Also there was no LN sticker, that indicates the bearing was changed, in the kit. It sounds like LN has refined their system since then but he had worked on my car for a couple of years and I was confident he was a capable mechanic. He is now on the approved LN list and has done many IMS retrofits from LN. With 34K on my LN bearing I'm feeling confident the procedure was done correctly.

I'm hoping my mechanic is as capable as yours!! I plan to stay with him and see everything that he's doing when he does the job. Although I'm no expert,I still believe you could tell if the guy knows what he's doing or not. Some mechanics specifically tell you that you wont be allowed to stay in their garage whilst they're working on your car,but I always stay next to him when he's doing a big job on my cars and he doesn't mind,so I'm hoping that if we both go through the instructions carefully together, the job will be done right, fingers crossed!!

X is the model year = 1999

6 = 6 cylinder
5 = engine type
X = 1999
14718 = counting number

Regards
Markus

Oh ok, thats good to know. So I should have the double row bearing then

Pedro Bonilla just posted a very good video on youtube concerning the IMS and the bearing options for replacements. Because I'm at work I can't paste the link in for the youtube video (youtube is blocked here) but search for it and you'll certainly find it.

It was a fascinating explanation of how oil finds its way into the hollow intermediate shaft chamber and how it becomes acidic over time and seeps into the bearing and washes away the grease causing premature bearing failure. He said they only see 1.5 out of 10 motors with old oil in the hollow part of the shaft, btw.

His final thought was the only way to battle the IMS bearing having its grease washed out of the sealed bearing would be the direct oil feed solution.

The only slight issue I have with Pedro's kit is :
1. he doesn't boldly state specifically how insignificant(in terms of the total oil system) the DOF oil requirement is. Volumetrically the DOF requires very little.

2. the generic bearing supplied in his kit is from Argentina.At least it is not China. A Timken/FAG/SKF from a better source would have been reassuring.But you can supply your own very inexpensively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

What baffles me is that he states that the steel bearings work better with the DOF than the ceramic ones. On the other hand, LN claim that their bearings are specifically designed to work in high temperatures with very little oil required to lube the bearings. There's also eternal fix's system where it pumps oil through the ims shaft. I don't know, I really need to make my mind up about which route to take but I think I'm leaning towards LN's system, without additional oil feeds

Here is the link RandallNeighbour was referring to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1QJnXKdKho

Very interesting insight into how the problems start.

The video thats referenced, begs for a rebuttal.

Please elaborate!! I need to be educated about these bearings and want to make the right decision!

Wow, did i get it right? Ceramic rollers in bearings won't work, baacuse the rollers are too hard. :D Well, maybe he shouldn't use that cheap chinese stuff. :D ;)

Did anybody think about to seal the tube volume directly behind the roller bearing? For example glue in a aluminium peace with the same diameter the inner tube has. If there is no underpressure, no oil will be sucked in.

Or you park your car always at a hill with the nose down. So the oil level is below the bearing. ;)

Regards
Markus

I'm doubting you can find a glue that can withstand the kind of heat a motor creates and not melt and contaminate the oil.

If you ask me, the IMS designer should have put a pin hole at the other end of the IMS shaft to allow for pressure equalization.