Autopsy of a "good" IMS bearing

[Jamesp]

A stock 6204 single row deep groove ball bearing was cut apart for inspection. Before dis-assembly, the bearing seemed tight, and the side seals appeared intact. The bearing was taken from a used replacement IMS shaft with unknown history. There was oil in the IMS shaft tube when the bearing was removed. This picture shows the bearing upon removal from the IMS shaft. the seal looks good.




Taking off the side seal, the interior was filled with what could best be described as brown oily goo. It appeared to be slightly thicker than motor oil.




Cutting apart the bearing to inspect the inner races revealed a series of equally spaced scuffed lines running across the bearing race. These appeared to be discrete areas of fine pitting on the races. There were 8 lines on the inner race, and 7 lines on the outer race. This is the inner race:




and this is the outer race - and a bottle of wine, think I'll have a glass after this post:




This looks like the very beginning of the bearing failing. The 8 balls in the bearing looked like the finish was going and there was at least one noticeable scratch evident. My sense is this bearing is failing due to contamination and improper lubrication - low speed operation with too low of a viscosity lubricant.

[thstone]

Thanks for the detailed info! How many miles?

[Jamesp]

Unknown mileage. Came out of a shaft I bought on Ebay.

[BYprodriver]

Nice post! I rarely read threads with IMS in the title but it was good to see this.

Thought it was interesting/sad that apparently the current part# for new IMS ends in 06 indicating 6th revision/improvement?

[Steve Tinker]

James....
As per BYprodriver said.

But without knowing the history, the results are too simplistic to draw any meaninfull conclusions, as the pictures only show a slightly worn bearing that could have been in operation for 10,000 miles or 110,000 miles.
If the mileage & service history was available, the resulting wear would be more meaningfull. And as you know, some high mileage engines won't have as much bearing wear as others even though they have had a similar maintenance regime.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

James....
As per BYprodriver said.

But without knowing the history, the results are too simplistic to draw any meaningful conclusions, as the pictures only show a slightly worn bearing that could have been in operation for 10,000 miles or 110,000 miles.
If the mileage & service history was available, the resulting wear would be more meaningfull. And as you know, some high mileage engines won't have as much bearing wear as others even though they have had a similar maintenance regime.

I found it interesting that there are 8 balls in the bearing, and 8 equally spaced wear patches on the inner ring with 7 on the outer. I don't know what that means, if anything. I was hoping someone else might chime in.

[Walter White]

Hi,
I have been playing with ball bearings, running them at high speed until they fail to see how and why. What I have observed is that as they wear, they produce a metallic dust that is incredibly fine. I think that the oily "goo" that so many people have mentioned is a mixture of oil and this metallic dust.

[RawleyD]

Interesting for sure. . But no conclusions of any type can really be drawn from this sample bearing.
Doesn't really look that bad to an untrained pair of eyes like mine.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

But without knowing the history, the results are too simplistic to draw any meaninfull conclusions, as the pictures only show a slightly worn bearing that could have been in operation for 10,000 miles or 110,000 miles.

^ What Steve said. That's why I was wondering about the mileage.

[Jake Raby]

Glad to see this autopsy done. This is what we do with the bearings that are extracted, and its how we have gathered so much trend data.

When people have an IMSR carried out and they say "I felt the bearing and it was fine, I changed it for no reason", I just shake my head and ask them if they cut the bearing apart. The answer is always no.

If they did, they'd find something resembling what is detailed in this post. Judging a book by its cover has never been a good idea.

[thstone]

So, can someone draw any conclusions based on the photographic evidence? Approx mileage? How much longer would it have lasted?

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Glad to see this autopsy done. This is what we do with the bearings that are extracted, and its how we have gathered so much trend data.

When people have an IMSR carried out and they say "I felt the bearing and it was fine, I changed it for no reason", I just shake my head and ask them if they cut the bearing apart. The answer is always no.

If they did, they'd find something resembling what is detailed in this post. Judging a book by its cover has never been a good idea.

Well not everyone says "no" . However I will go back over it and look again with stronger magnification. Mine though was double row, very low failure rate.

[Jake Raby]

That bearing was at a stage 3 failure point. I have caught a few of them like this, the single row IMSB is at stage 3 for a very short period of time compared to the dual row which will run this way for much, much longer.

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Unknown mileage. Came out of a shaft I bought on Ebay.

Hi James,
I am curious about the inside diameter of the IM shaft, the tube, behind the bearing. Do you have means to measure that?
Thanks

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Walter White

Hi James,
I am curious about the inside diameter of the IM shaft, the tube, behind the bearing. Do you have means to measure that?
Thanks

As close as I could measure was 34.25 mm. I'd put +/- 1 mm on there for tolerance as the measurement was not straightforward.

[Walter White]

Thanks James. I have been looking for a shaft on eBay.

[jdlmodelt]

Well now that is interesting. Too low of a viscosity lubricant. I've been wondering about running a heavier oil in my engine. Like the 10W40 that my original owner's manual indicates as opposed to the 0W40 that everyone talks about now. Is the tolerance on the Porsche engines from the 2.5l engines as tight as the new Hondas that indicate 5W20? I compare to a Honda engine because they run for multi 100k without coming apart. ???

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by jdlmodelt

Well now that is interesting. Too low of a viscosity lubricant. I've been wondering about running a heavier oil in my engine. Like the 10W40 that my original owner's manual indicates as opposed to the 0W40 that everyone talks about now. Is the tolerance on the Porsche engines from the 2.5l engines as tight as the new Hondas that indicate 5W20? I compare to a Honda engine because they run for multi 100k without coming apart. ???

No, and the engines lose a ton of internal clearance during expansion. With %/20 oil you'll be opening a can of worms that you won't like. The oil pump in these engines suffers greatly from internal losses due to clearances changing with thermal expansion, which makes it all worse.

I have developed another product to help with these losses and its going through the patent processes now.

5/20 oil might work fine in the M96 engine if operated in the Arctic, otherwise you'll have issues with valve lash, hydraulic tensioners and many other issues. This has been proven through direct experience and development on the street, track, dyno and otherwise with the M96 engines as our only focus. What the IMSB likes, isn't necessarily what the engine likes as a whole, that is unless you finally just suck it up and install the IMS Solution and allow your engine's oil to support the loads of your IMSB by taking that damn ball bearing out of the equation altogether.

[jdlmodelt]

Thanks Jake, That's interesting how they built the engine around such strange tolerances. How does Subaru get around this with their boxer engines that crank out some incredible HP per displacement? (of course Subies have head gasket issues). How about all those motorcycle engines out there with roller bearings located all over the place in the engine? Or is that just because of how the ball bearings are located and consequent loading in line with the bearing or a thrust loading?

Anyway, I appreciated the experiential response!

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by jdlmodelt

Thanks Jake, That's interesting how they built the engine around such strange tolerances. How does Subaru get around this with their boxer engines that crank out some incredible HP per displacement? (of course Subies have head gasket issues). How about all those motorcycle engines out there with roller bearings located all over the place in the engine? Or is that just because of how the ball bearings are located and consequent loading in line with the bearing or a thrust loading?

Anyway, I appreciated the experiential response!

Those other engines are not quite so impacted by the accounting department. Suby engines have 2X tighter running clearances than the M96, which is both a pro and a con, because tighter clearances lead to shear faster.

The M96 is the M96 and it isn't anything else. People refuse to listen when I say this, yet I have cars here from 30 states primarily because people treat them like something they are not.