Another IMS bearing thread

[Jamesp]

So the oil pump is driven by the IMS shaft. How about a small oil passage through the hex key from the oil pump to the interier of the IMS shaft and an open bearing at the other end? Plenty of oil, and might be an easy mod. plus your stealing oil from the best place possible.

A small hole in the oil pump driven gear connecting with a passage through the center of the hex drive key, and another small hole through the IMS end fitting at the bottom of the hex drive hole would do the trick.

Couple that with a creamic bearing for overkill. Voila!

[Walter White]

Now that is something even I would be afraid to try. I am more comfortable with things that can be easily set back to original if things don't work out.
But I am certainly interested in the idea.

Could the oil from the pump be done without removing the IM shaft?
I have been intending to experiment to see if oil in the shaft would affect balance. I would think not, it would just distribute itself evenly inside the shaft I would assume.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Walter White

Now that is something even I would be afraid to try.

I think you could warm up to it. Your posts on bearings shows you are comfortable with new ideas.

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

I think you could warm up to it. Your posts on bearings shows you are comfortable with new ideas.

Absolutely. I am anxious to hear more. I am not familiar with the shaft and pump arraignment so it is a little hard for me to understand the details.
I may be a hard sell because right now grease is my first choice. Grease is good. If hope I can make grease a viable lubricant for the IMSB.
When I saw how superior the Nachi seal is to any others, I realized that keeping grease in and oil out may not be impossible.

[Jake Raby]

If you look hard enough you'll find that a hex key modified for oiling has already been patented.

On top of that, it doesn't work efficiently, because of how the oil has to pass into it.

One version of the IMS Solution was oiled in this manner. We oiled the OEM bearing in this manner during testing way back in 2007, but once the issue was conclusively determined NOT to be lubrication, we tabled it. Thats been the case with many more time than people know about.

On top of that, if you want to create a stress riser that will waken the oil pump drive, just EDM or bore a hole through it. They break without any help, in stock form.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

If you look hard enough you'll find that a hex key modified for oiling has already been patented.

On top of that, it doesn't work efficiently, because of how the oil has to pass into it.

One version of the IMS Solution was oiled in this manner. We oiled the OEM bearing in this manner during testing way back in 2007, but once the issue was conclusively determined NOT to be lubrication, we tabled it. Thats been the case with many more time than people know about.

On top of that, if you want to create a stress riser that will waken the oil pump drive, just EDM or bore a hole through it. They break without any help, in stock form.

Wow - I'm catching up! It was a good thought though, good enough to patent! Additionally, stay away from EDM for all the hype, it's not what it's cracked up to be. I can see this would be a bust for a plain bearing, but for a ceramic ball it seems the problem would be too much oil! Now if we could just get some unobtainium for the oil pump drive hex...

On to more pressing matters, any idea why a motor with fuel and spark won't run? What would you run down first? I'm draining thee old fuel, it did hit a few times but wouldn't catch.

Ok - I'm done hijacking this thread.

[Jake Raby]

The patent is part of another claim.

Hell, we have even been patenting the bad ideas, because if we don't someone will "invent them" 5 years later and claiming they are the best thing since sliced bread.

There are times when security means going absolutely over the top, which wastes money and drives the price of the final products up.

When going through these processes we have to think like the enemy and consider any possible other way to reach a similar goal. We have three more patents filed at the present and two more ready to file.

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

On to more pressing matters, any idea why a motor with fuel and spark won't run? What would you run down first? I'm draining thee old fuel, it did hit a few times but wouldn't catch.

Ok - I'm done hijacking this thread.

I thought I was hijacking this thread!

Maybe try disconnecting the battery for a few minutes to reset the ECU?

If I were to go with oil lubrication on the IMSB, I think I would try to pick up the oil right after the oil cooler outlet. There it is filtered and cooled. If I go with injected oil, I am going to take the cooler off and see if I can drill and tap a fitting into the oil passage that exits the cooler into the engine case casting.

[Jake Raby]

I think we all hijacked it!

[woodsman]

[QUOTE=Jamesp;380667 On to more pressing matters, any idea why a motor with fuel and spark won't run? What would you run down first? I'm draining thee old fuel, it did hit a few times but wouldn't catch.

Ok - I'm done hijacking this thread.[/QUOTE]

Double check timing??

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by woodsman

Double check timing??

Valve timing???

[Jamesp]

oh, man!, I'm hijacking the thread again!

[Jamesp]

IMS Bearing!, IMS Bearing! Phew! There, we're back on track.

[thom4782]

Walter…IMHO: any new design must also fix the single row OEM bearing’s Achilles heel, namely its relatively poor load carrying capacity compared to dual row ones.
This inherent weakness, not lubrication, explains why single row OEM bearings failed 8 times more frequently than their dual row counterparts.

So if you or someone else could develop a more affordable design for single row shafts that matches the dual row’s load carrying performance, then owners could drive their cars around worry free for the life of their engines.

[Jamesp]

From what I've seen, and this is simply gut feeling with - NO DATA - so I normally wouldn't say it,... the OEM single row bearings are adequate for the loads provided they have uncompromised grease lubrication. The dual rows are overkill and because of the additional load carrying capacity, can tolerate poor lubrication over a much longer time. Bearings tend to fail in an exponential manner. That means small changes in RPM, load, or other variables can lead to quick failures. I studied a case of police car alternator bearing failures. Turns out the additional electrical loads on a police car at idle was killing the batteries because the alternator could not keep up at idle. The solution?, a smaller alternator pulley so the alternator turned faster at idle. Going down the freeway those alternators were turning plenty fast. The result was repeatable bearing failures in the alternators.

[Walter White]

Took a little time today to cut an IMSB flange for the supplemental seal and glue a piece of sheet rubber to the existing seal on a Nachi 6204.



I have the setup soaking in oil as I type, except I went straight to the torsional load test with the vice grips.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

From what I've seen, and this is simply gut feeling with - NO DATA - so I normally wouldn't say it,... the OEM single row bearings are adequate for the loads provided they have uncompromised grease lubrication. The dual rows are overkill and because of the additional load carrying capacity, can tolerate poor lubrication over a much longer time. Bearings tend to fail in an exponential manner. That means small changes in RPM, load, or other variables can lead to quick failures. I studied a case of police car alternator bearing failures. Turns out the additional electrical loads on a police car at idle was killing the batteries because the alternator could not keep up at idle. The solution?, a smaller alternator pulley so the alternator turned faster at idle. Going down the freeway those alternators were turning plenty fast. The result was repeatable bearing failures in the alternators.

Guess what.. The 6204 is a GM Alternator bearing!

[thom4782]

James: if your 'gut' hypothesis were true, then failure rates of single and dual row bearings would be similar. They are not. Data submitted in the Eisen lawsuit showed single row bearings failed more than 8 times the rate of dual row bearings.

[Jake Raby]

The dual rows are overkill and because of the additional load carrying capacity,

Let's remember that statement for a later date... I certainly concur with that statement, and I believe in overkill.

can tolerate poor lubrication over a much longer time.

None of the bearings that we have analyzed or have had analyzed show any signs of a lack of lubrication. It takes catching bearings at all the stages of failure, then analyzing them to gather this data, which takes years to accomplish.

Since 2007 we've known these issues were not related lubrication.

[Walter White]

Here is another priority for my IMS bearing replacement. Alignment.



If this flange were installed as-is, the bearing could very possibly be placed out of alignment, caused by the high spot on the bolt tang.
After I install the bearing into the IM shaft, I am going to measure the distance from the bearing outer race to the surface that the flange bolts onto on the case to make sure the bearing is parallel with the case surface.
Then I am going to take the seal off the flange and try to slip it into place to check that all the bolt tangs on the flange touch the case surface. If one or two tangs are high, not touching, I'm not sure what to do then but I guess I'll figure it out.

Edit: Better yet, to check that the bearing seating surface inside the IM shaft is parallel to the case surface, I will take a little off a 6204 outer race outside surface so that the race will slide into the IM shaft bore easily. Then I can check for parallel of the race to case surface, before installing the actual bearing. But I will check the final installation of the bearing too.