Another IMS bearing thread

[ppbon]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

I used a sealed Nachi greased ball bearing with a vented IMS shaft. I'll tell you I'm way out in the wilderness on this one as I made it up myself, but I'm sure enough that its right to bet my engine on it.

Do you have any pics of the vented IMS.
That was one of our routes to solve the issue, but was not further developed because it requires engine tear-down.
Good luck
Happy Boxstering
Pedro

[southernstar]

Yes Tony, the Vertex roller bearing replacement has been discussed here previously and the consensus seems to be that, in spite of the obviously greater surface area of roller bearings, they are ill-suited to the IMS application: roller bearings are not intended for, nor are they capable of dealing with the thrust loads that the IMS is subjected to.

Brad

[Kirk]

Yes, I believe thrust or axial load handling is the big issue with the Eternal Fix roller bearing. However, according to their website that is now updated with more information, they say that they have a patent-pending way of dealing with thrust. But they don't give any technical details. They do refer to their bearing as a "thrust" roller bearing... I don't know... I'll believe it when I see it. I'd want specific technical details as to how they overcame the poor thrust handling of a roller bearing. I really question it because bearing companies have not be able to overcome this issue for decades! So I'd like to know how an aftermarket, cheap (as in low cost and sometimes low quality) parts manufacturer like Vertex cracked the code that the big bearing makers could not.

Kirk Bristol

[tonysilver986]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Yes Tony, the Vertex roller bearing replacement has been discussed here previously and the consensus seems to be that, in spite of the obviously greater surface area of roller bearings, they are ill-suited to the IMS application: roller bearings are not intended for, nor are they capable of dealing with the thrust loads that the IMS is subjected to.

Brad

So I haven't stumbled across an eternal fix then, damn and blast.

This is what I shopped in to join the Pcar club. Had various ones for 12 years or so but this was the best.
As said, 4.0L v8, tubular chassis and fibreglass body and only 1100kg

[BobRickel]

My local indy mechanic has been working on these cars for years. His fix is the EPS fix shown in this video:
He charges $1400 to do this on cars with Tiptronic, which includes all parts and includes changing out the AOS, belt, and plugs.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by BobRickel

My local indy mechanic has been working on these cars for years. His fix is to pull the engine, center punch a hole from the front oil pressured side of the IMS and put in a roller bearing with no seals. The oil comes through the IMS shaft from the front pressurized side and flows through the roller bearing and out the rear side thus constantly lubricating the bearing with pressurized oil. He charges $1400 to do this on cars with Tiptronic, which includes all parts

The part he is center punching is the only thing holding the oil pump drive key from falling into the IMS shaft during operation. I see these failures occur without the assistance of a center punch.

It helps to understand the anatomy of the patient before performing the surgical procedure.

[BobRickel]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The part he is center punching is the only thing holding the oil pump drive key from falling into the IMS shaft during operation. I see these failures occur without the assistance of a center punch.

It helps to understand the anatomy of the patient before performing the surgical procedure.

My Indy mechanic is from Germany where he was Porsche trained. He was the lead mechanic for Brumos Porsche in Jacksonville for 24 years and had his hand in every engine that was built and used there for all of those years.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by BobRickel

My Indy mechanic is from Germany where he was Porsche trained. He was the lead mechanic for Brumos Porsche in Jacksonville for 24 years and had his hand in every engine that was built and used there for all of those years.

Has he experienced an M96 engine that failed due to the oil pump hex key falling into the IMS tube?

To fully understnd the anatomy requires cutting open components for cross sectional views.

[thom4782]

Originally Posted by BobRickel

My Indy mechanic is from Germany where he was Porsche trained. He was the lead mechanic for Brumos Porsche in Jacksonville for 24 years and had his hand in every engine that was built and used there for all of those years.

Experience helps, but it isn't a guarantee. For example, consider the years of experience the Porsche team had when they designed the IMS in the first place.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by BobRickel

My local indy mechanic has been working on these cars for years. His fix is to pull the engine, center punch a hole from the front oil pressured side of the IMS and put in a roller bearing with no seals. The oil comes through the IMS shaft from the front pressurized side and flows through the roller bearing and out the rear side thus constantly lubricating the bearing with pressurized oil. He charges $1400 to do this on cars with Tiptronic, which includes all parts

This looks eerily similar to post 192 in this thread, which seems to have some fatal, if yet undefined flaw. Looks good to me, but I'll punch holes in an IMS shaft with very little provocation. Careful with that oil pressure however!

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by BobRickel

My local indy mechanic has been working on these cars for years. His fix is the EPS fix shown in this video:
He charges $1400 to do this on cars with Tiptronic, which includes all parts and includes changing out the AOS, belt, and plugs.

Why not drilling a small hole along the groove of the allen drive? All metal debree can be removed. The IMS tube is full accessible, so you remove debree. Oil pump is also full accessible. The hole must not be that big.

The downside of the idea in general: you loose oil pressure for other engine components.

Regards, Markus

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

Why not drilling a small hole along the groove of the allen drive? All metal debree can be removed. The IMS tube is full accessible, so you remove debree. Oil pump is also full accessible. The hole must not be that big.

The downside of the idea in general: you loose oil pressure for other engine components.

Regards, Markus

And you flood the IMS shaft, which also may not be such a good idea.......

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

Why not drilling a small hole along the groove of the allen drive? All metal debree can be removed. The IMS tube is full accessible, so you remove debree. Oil pump is also full accessible. The hole must not be that big.

The downside of the idea in general: you loose oil pressure for other engine components.

Regards, Markus

How are these roller bearing installations handling thrust loads ...if there are any. Do any have this installed? I hope oil film is not being relied upon.

Personally, I would not be at all on board with putting a groove down the length of my oil pump hex drive. A centre hole may work if you are a gambling man. That section looks too small to begin with an now one has introduced notch sensitivity that is off the scale for torsion.....imho

[BudmanV24]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Yes Tony, the Vertex roller bearing replacement has been discussed here previously and the consensus seems to be that, in spite of the obviously greater surface area of roller bearings, they are ill-suited to the IMS application: roller bearings are not intended for, nor are they capable of dealing with the thrust loads that the IMS is subjected to.

Brad

A couple of thoughts that I have on this.

No I do not think that the above pictured IMS bearing is a quality, well thought out piece of equipment. Yet, I do want to add to Brad's comment about roller bearings not being designed for thrust loads. While this is true it appears that this product has integrated plain bearing style thrust washers into the bearing races.

Do I think their design will work? Probably not because they look like low grade, 5 cent parts. But, I'd sure love to hear someone try it and so I can see the pieces when their engine goes.

On another note, I have 4 engines sitting in my garage with spun bearings or d-chunked cylinders. Not a single one has a bad ims bearing. I've pulled several ims bearings and never found a single one that exhibited any play. While yes the IMS bearing is something that goes out on some cars, I think if you drive these things hard the IMS bearing is the least of your worries.

Anyone ever seen the bearing at the front of the ims shaft go out? Of course not, its a plain bearing. All it is, is the steel ims shaft riding in the aluminum casting of the oil pump.

I think from a releability stand point Raby's IMS Solution (the one that utilizes a plain bearing that is force fed oil) is the best idea to date. It's not a coincidence that the only ball bearing in these engines is commonly a failure point. Ball bearings require less lubrication and provide less drag, but wear out faster in my experience and are more susceptible to debris. So then the only problem with the IMS solution is is it's cost. But I guess that's up to the consumer to gauge the value of their engine.

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by BudmanV24

A couple of thoughts that I have on this.
While yes the IMS bearing is something that goes out on some cars, I think if you drive these things hard the IMS bearing is the least of your worries.

I have heard this many times and while I do not disagree at all, I think it may very well be a matter of the chains throwing much more oil around and creating much more oil mist in the area of the IMS bearing at high RPMs. At low RPMs, the oil that the chains pick up stay on the chains. So it may still come down to just lubrication.
Chain saw bar oil has ingredients in it that keep the oil on the chain, and not flying off at high RPMs. On our Porsche motors, we want the opposite.

One thing I have thought about. How many ball bearings do you see fail in transmissions, wheel bearings, motor cycle engines, the way IMS bearing fail . While they may wear to a point of needing replacement, I don't recall seeing the complete failures in these bearings that the IMS bearing seems to exhibit. When the bearings are bathed in grease or oil, complete or catastrophic failures are very rare.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Walter White

I have heard this many times and while I do not disagree at all, I think it may very well be a matter of the chains throwing much more oil around and creating much more oil mist in the area of the IMS bearing at high RPMs. At low RPMs, the oil that the chains pick up stay on the chains. So it may still come down to just lubrication.
Chain saw bar oil has ingredients in it that keep the oil on the chain, and not flying off at high RPMs. On our Porsche motors, we want the opposite.

One thing I have thought about. How many ball bearings do you see fail in transmissions, wheel bearings, motor cycle engines, the way IMS bearing fail . While they may wear to a point of needing replacement, I don't recall seeing the complete failures in these bearings that the IMS bearing seems to exhibit. When the bearings are bathed in grease or oil, complete or catastrophic failures are very rare.

But Pedro's video shows centrifugal force throwing oil AWAY from the IMSB area? Not that I agree with that, but your hypothesis states the opposite.

The M96 bearings LOVE RPM because it helps unload them, the M97 bearings hate it because the components spin too fast. M96 bearings fail on the street, M97 bearings fail on the track and seldom on the street, very seldom. Load is the evil constant.

[trimer]

For Jake R...and just out of shear curiosity, you have put in so much time with these engines. I have the upgrade you all developed and glad I did it. That was 1,000 miles ago. We see a lot of talk in a lot of our threads about these neat little cars never being collectible. I am curious what your thoughts are on that topic. I assume most wont replace the IMS and we will start seeing a ton of failures from this as well as other parts, but do you eventually think the early survivors might actually start to hold some value? Again..just curious. You have a ton invested in these motors and realize they are not just boxster specific motors...

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by trimer

For Jake R...and just out of shear curiosity, you have put in so much time with these engines. I have the upgrade you all developed and glad I did it. That was 1,000 miles ago. We see a lot of talk in a lot of our threads about these neat little cars never being collectible. I am curious what your thoughts are on that topic. I assume most wont replace the IMS and we will start seeing a ton of failures from this as well as other parts, but do you eventually think the early survivors might actually start to hold some value? Again..just curious. You have a ton invested in these motors and realize they are not just boxster specific motors...

Its so hard to say what will happen with the value of these cars. The IMS issues and all the other deficiencies have scarred them heavily. I'd like to think that the cars will have price increases over time, especially with fixes for the major issues easily attainable today.

I can't imagine a "vintage Boxster" and out of the 32 cars that we have on our schedule for engine reconstructions only two of them are Boxsters, the rest are 996/997 or Caymans. Thats much different than the old days when we started this, back then it was rare to see a 996 here. hell, I can't imagine a "vintage 996" either.

I am not betting on the cars holding value, so in the December issue of Panorama you'll be introduced to "Cayman X" and our DFI (post 2009) engine program thats now 4 years in the making. Its always about getting into the next big thing before the next guy :-)

Thats why we went straight to 4.2 liters from the factory 3.4!

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

But Pedro's video shows centrifugal force throwing oil AWAY from the IMSB area? Not that I agree with that, but your hypothesis states the opposite.

The M96 bearings LOVE RPM because it helps unload them, the M97 bearings hate it because the components spin too fast. M96 bearings fail on the street, M97 bearings fail on the track and seldom on the street, very seldom. Load is the evil constant.

I am not familiar with the video you mentioned, but it would be nice if the oil would sling off the chains, but stick to the bearing.
When I was experimenting with getting oil to a bearing spinning at 4 - 6K RPMs, I was getting the idea that the bearing wasn't getting any oil at all. I would drop a drop of oil into the race of the spinning bearing and it would instantly vaporize. I don't think the oil ever even got to the contact surfaces.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Walter White

I am not familiar with the video you mentioned, but it would be nice if the oil would sling off the chains, but stick to the bearing.

He's posted it in several threads. In all your research I can't believe that you haven't found it.