Another IMS bearing thread

[mikefocke]

Based on theory until several have survived for many miles and months in the real innards of our engines. Only way you could have confidence that your customers investment would be protected.

If I have a 8% chance of failure with the OEM single row, am I reducing risk below that figure by installing XYZ fix? Until I can answer that question affirmatively based on data ....

[Jamesp]

I didn't realize you were involved in designing an approach to fix this. What redesign approach were you involved in, and what engineering principles and testing and verification requirements did you employ? I'd like your opinion on going forward with the understanding my only customer is me. This is just a toy that may become a DD.

I went with the original bearing design because I could not find actual bearing load data to perform a meaningful L10 calc. Estimating the bearing load data makes the calculation worthless - just a guess. So I trusted the Germans on that one.

For the "test and verification program" (on one car!) I put off installing a new flywheel because I'm going to replace the flywheel and bearing in about 15 - 20K and assess the viability of the grease after a year. I have an identical control bearing I will cut open at the same time to compare lubricant degradation in the installed bearing. I'll let this forum know how that turns out, but it will be awhile.

[Shehadehd]

I was just reading through this month's edition of Porsche panorama magazine when I came across this


I think it's the roller bearing IMS 'eternal fix' mentioned here. I guess the creator must believe in it enough to move from eBay listings to porsche magazines.

[mikefocke]

James I have had no involvement in designing any IMS fix, neither financial or engineering. I've just followed the subject for years on several forums and been fortunate to talk to some of the developers. I do have a product development background.

I think you meant your message to be addressed to Pedro.

If you did mean it to be to me, I'd choose the product that best reduced risk and expense to me based on the available data at the time I made my choice. Not opinions or theories or marketing from what was the latest product.

We are dealing with 12 to 8 year old drive em till they drop cars, not collectables. Wonderful cars yes but these aren't 956s. I can't see putting $25k engines in a $10k car. Or the latest new IMS kit (and there are more new approaches coming folks) when there are good enough kits which will probably last as long as the rest of the engine will and they are so much better tested to do good and avoid harm than the latest and said to be the greatest. I value 12+ of real world experiences going back 4+ years over a few recent ones. When shopping for a washing machine, I also like the reviews based on long term use more than the just bought it and it is shiny reviews.

Is valuing real world experience fair to the new guys? No. So what. They have to prove themselves. Until then why would I buy into their marketing claims? What if they turn out to not be so good for the engine after a large number have been run in the real world. Low risk and good enough versus maybe great.

It's your decision and your risk and your cash.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

James I have had no involvement in designing any IMS fix, neither financial or engineering. I've just followed the subject for years on several forums and been fortunate to talk to some of the developers. I do have a product development background.

I think you meant your message to be addressed to Pedro.

If you did mean it to be to me, I'd choose the product that best reduced risk and expense to me based on the available data at the time I made my choice. Not opinions or theories or marketing from what was the latest product.

We are dealing with 12 to 8 year old drive em till they drop cars, not collectables. Wonderful cars yes but these aren't 956s. I can't see putting $25k engines in a $10k car. Or the latest new IMS kit (and there are more new approaches coming folks) when there are good enough kits which will probably last as long as the rest of the engine will and they are so much better tested to do good and avoid harm than the latest and said to be the greatest. I value 12+ of real world experiences going back 4+ years over a few recent ones. When shopping for a washing machine, I also like the reviews based on long term use more than the just bought it and it is shiny reviews.

Is valuing real world experience fair to the new guys? No. So what. They have to prove themselves. Until then why would I buy into their marketing claims? What if they turn out to not be so good for the engine after a large number have been run in the real world. Low risk and good enough versus maybe great.

It's your decision and your risk and your cash.

My mistake. I mistook you for one who was doing the re-design of the IMS to improve the reliability of that particular Achilles heal. Some do, and some comment. Is valuing the opinions of those who do over those who comment fair? No, So what. I'll stick with, value and be one of those who do. That's why I came up with and implemented a unique and logical solution to the problem with minimum modification to the engine. Will it stand the test of time? Seems like it should, but maybe not, and in the end the real value is in the "doing" which is after all what I do. I can't help it.

[mikefocke]

Jamesp, I hope your approach is successful. Heck, I hope they all are. Time will tell.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Jamesp, I hope your approach is successful. Heck, I hope they all are. Time will tell.

Thanks, I appreciate it. And you'r right, time will tell, after I get the *^#&#%@$!!! engine back together. I'm going to start a DIY thread on the rebuild, or maybe it will be a GMA (Give Me Advice).

[Walter White]

Here is my latest 'Bad' idea for a bearing that lives in grease and a shot of fresh grease can be injected at oil change with a grease gun.



It will require a special seal be fabricated to be installed on the bearing in place of the original, with a grease seal like that found on an engine crankshaft.
A grease fitting can be plumbed to a location on the bottom of the bell housing with a zerk fitting for the grease insertion.
I have ordered some bearings with the metal seals to see how they are made and installed. It looks from photos that the metal seals are pushed into the groove on the outer race and then a sharp pin-punch is used around the seal to pin it in place.

[rp17]

Like these new ideas on the Ixx issue. But they all bring me back to the old Insaro solution. What if you just installed that bearing, and with the back up bearing that it has, you never loose your engine. Sounds like the best fix especially now that the LN needs to serviced at 50k. What are your thoughts on this guys?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by rp17

Like these new ideas on the Ixx issue. But they all bring me back to the old Insaro solution. What if you just installed that bearing, and with the back up bearing that it has, you never loose your engine. Sounds like the best fix especially now that the LN needs to serviced at 50k. What are your thoughts on this guys?

It's not new that the single row IMSB has a 50k mile service interval. That's been posted since it was first available.

I'd hold out a few weeks before making any purchases... Distributors already have their purchase orders submitted for the Generation 2 Retrofit kit.

Or just install the IMS Solution and remove the ball bearing from the equation totally.

The problem with Insaro is while you may have a back up bearing, that bearing won't keep all the debris from the primary bearing failing from taking out the remainder of the engine. Collateral damage from an IMSB failure is the determining factor for engine resurrection.

[moresquirt]

Generation 2!! I must have missed that Jake,whats the difference between gen1 and gen2. Jake do u believe that the newer larger 06 thru 08 bearing is really superior to the double row and have u seen or done any work on this newer design in respect to IMSB failure. I have searched the web and found none yet.

[Jake Raby]

The Gen 2 retrofit details have not been disclosed publicly as of yet. This will occur after the first of the year as our focus is to get the units in the hands of our distributors before releasing the details.

The 06-08 IMSB have proven to be solid. Though we have seen some failures they only occur on-track.

[Porsche9]

I am very interested in more info on the Gen 2 IMSB. I was planning on getting mine done later this month but it sound like I might want to wait.

[barkinfool]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The Gen 2 retrofit details have not been disclosed publicly as of yet. This will occur after the first of the year as our focus is to get the units in the hands of our distributors before releasing the details.

The 06-08 IMSB have proven to be solid. Though we have seen some failures they only occur on-track.

Jake - Any update on Gen 2 release? If already posted elsewhere missed it. I'm waiting to do a single row 3.2L until I can learn more.

[BED997]

Jake: Will this Gen II be offered on the LN site for individual sale? - how would my local Indy shop purchase a Gen II bearing if I decide to go this route instead of purchasing the current retrofit (I'd assume they will still be for sale?) or scheduling to see you guys in Georgia for a solution?

Thanks

[QUOTE=I'd hold out a few weeks before making any purchases... Distributors already have their purchase orders submitted for the Generation 2 Retrofit kit.

[Jake Raby]

[QUOTE=BED997;375035]Jake: Will this Gen II be offered on the LN site for individual sale? - how would my local Indy shop purchase a Gen II bearing if I decide to go this route instead of purchasing the current retrofit (I'd assume they will still be for sale?) or scheduling to see you guys in Georgia for a solution?

Thanks

[QUOTE=I'd hold out a few weeks before making any purchases... Distributors already have their purchase orders submitted for the Generation 2 Retrofit kit.[/QUOTE]

No, it will only be sold to our distributors for professional installation only. Thats the direction all the IMS products have gone, for very good reason. Since doing this last year our lives have been much less stressful and the complications related to retrofits have been cut by hundreds of percent.

Your local Indy can source the components from SSF Auto Parts, IMC, Worldpac and other major, well known distributors of Porsche parts.

[BED997]

Makes sense Jake - looking forward to seeing what you have come up with this time! I'll hold out for a little while longer before making a decision.

BTW - nice article in Panorama - downloaded it yesterday.

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by rp17

Like these new ideas on the Ixx issue. But they all bring me back to the old Insaro solution. What if you just installed that bearing, and with the back up bearing that it has, you never loose your engine. Sounds like the best fix especially now that the LN needs to serviced at 50k. What are your thoughts on this guys?

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

It's not new that the single row IMSB has a 50k mile service interval. That's been posted since it was first available.

I'd hold out a few weeks before making any purchases... Distributors already have their purchase orders submitted for the Generation 2 Retrofit kit.

Or just install the IMS Solution and remove the ball bearing from the equation totally.

The problem with Insaro is while you may have a back up bearing, that bearing won't keep all the debris from the primary bearing failing from taking out the remainder of the engine. Collateral damage from an IMSB failure is the determining factor for engine resurrection.

I believe that I am the only 986 owner on this forum with the Insaro bearing. It was a logical choice for me with my car being located in Spain, and my indi shop certified to install it, and experienced in doing so. I agree with Jake that taking the ball bearing out of the picture is the best option, but at the time I did the retrofit I wasn't yet familiar with the shop. Now that I know them I wouldn't hesitate to have them install the Solution. The backup bearing idea is, as Jake points out, probably not going to matter for saving the engine if it gets filled with ceramic debris. However, the primary bearing and shaft are quite beefy, so I hope to get a lot of years out of it before it or something else grenades. I can always upgrade to the Solution at my next clutch change, though since my car only gets driven a few thousand miles a year that will take a while. I'm proceeding to drive the -bleep- out of the car now without worrying...

[Walter White]

I tried to install an SKF 11124 oil seal to a 6204 bearing, but it will not work.
It was a nice tight fit pressing the steel frame of the seal into the bearing outer race groove that holds the original seal. It was so tight it caused the frame to deform a bit on the adjacent side. This seal has two sealing surfaces, one for sealing oil, and another dust seal. The oil sealing part is on the inner race, and the dust seal is overhanging. The problem is the oil seal is too tight on the inner race. It creates a lot of drag and the inner race gets hot when run at a high speed. The seal eventually began to burn. But, a better seal may be possible. This exercise is to see if a better seal if possible on a bearing this small.

[Walter White]

My next iteration of a bad idea. There may be enough space on the IM shaft after the clip that holds the bearing in place to press a grease seal into.
There are a number of seals available with a 47mm OD, which is the ID of the bearing holder.