Pedros Techno DOF IMS fix?

[ppbon]

Originally Posted by jb92563

The IMS tube is not an oven and is the same heat as all the other oil in the engine so all this talk of burnt oil in the IMS tube does not make sense.

It's just a crock pot instead of a convection oven.
I have seen and smelled a couple of dozen cars in which the oil that came out of the IMS was as thick as molasses and stunk like nothing I'd smelled before.
We had to dissolve it with carb cleaner.

If you NEVER change the oil in your car it will gunk up and do the same.
The oil that seeps into the IMS is not replenished and that's why it's cooked.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

[mikefocke]

Is the IMS bearing submerged? I thought I had been told it was mist lubricated.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Is the IMS bearing submerged? I thought I had been told it was mist lubricated.

The only time the IMS would be lubricated by mist would be if the engine is suffering from oil starvation. The IMS is located well below the where the oil level sits during normal operation in the integrated dry sump (i.e. wet sump).

[southernstar]

Charles, the successful history of your ceramic bearing upgrade is precisely why I recommend the same for all except: 1. those with unlimited budgets, for whom I suspect that the LN Solution would be the way to go (in spite of the relative lack of vehicles on road to prove the technology); 2. those with the large single bearing who cannot upgrade the bearing without an engine tear-down. For those I would suggest that DOF lubrication of the original bearing, even if there are minor risks of aeration and oil pressure loss, would be better than leaving in the original bearing and hoping that it lasts now with just the removal of a seal.

I wonder, however, if a dual standard is not at play here. When LN introduced the ceramic bearing upgrade, customers installed the same even though they had not yet been proven in large numbers over a long period of time. They were convinced by the initial testing and the inherent logic of the design - something which you and others are now suggesting would be inappropriate for prospective customers of DOF technology. What is more, your new 'solution' is also not supported by a large number of installations over long periods of time. To remain logically consistent, doesn't that mean that the upgrade should also be preferrred to the solution because of its proven track record?

Brad

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

The IMS is located well below the where the oil level sits during normal operation in the integrated dry sump (i.e. wet sump).

In this discussion we've tried to focus on facts and what has been proven through testing. I believe this view though that the IMS bearing is well lubricated without the seal through oil bath or splash lubrication is an assumption not based on actual testing. It would be pretty hard to measure, but I don't think the actual sump level has been measured through the dynamic loads that a car would see during normal driving. I would like to see any data that has been collected, if this has been done.

As such, I personally do not hold to this assumption that the bearing will see adequate lubrication with simply the seal removed. What I have seen, on the contrary, points to mediocre lubrication at best. Seeing is believing though and this is what I have seen, stolen from Feelyx on Pelican Parts:



The intermediate shaft sits up relatively tight against the engine case, allowing just a small slit for oil to get through to lubricate it from the sump below. Some oil will fall off the chain from above, but will still need to get through this small slit. This picture does not show the cover that would further block flow of oil through splash lubrication to the bearing.





Some more pictures of different views further illustrating this point.

So, would I depend on splash lubrication for this critical bearing? Absolutely not!

But what about oil bath lubrication? Maybe the bearing is partially submerged...





These photos from Feelyx again show where the oil bath is located. Obviously the chain was designed by Porsche to be lubricated by an oil bath. The IMS bearing was not.

So how much oil does the bearing get then if you just remove the seal? The truth is that we don't really know. LN Engineering "assumes" that it is enough. I personally look at the location of the bearing and I do not come to that same conclusion. Instead, what I am willing to bet on is having a good, consistent flow of oil directly to the bearing - direct oil feed. With DOF there is no guessing, no assumptions, you KNOW the bearing is going to get enough oil regardless of how much oil is in the sump and regardless of vehicle dynamics (hard braking, hard cornering, etc.). With a very expensive engine on the line and a car that I love, I am going to trust something that is a lot more certain and consistent - direct oil feed. This is why I've been such a big proponent of the DOF system - it just makes sense to me!

Kirk Bristol

[moresquirt]

Does anyone believe that Porsche even remotely looked into any other solution when they updated once again the 06 and up IMS bearing design.Simply installing a larger bearing seems pretty limited outlook for thease world famous engineers it seems.If they had already dropped near 20 million in warranty claims before the law suit even surfaced i would have thought that they would have put there best tech on that one. Apparently not !! I love my car (06 boxster s) but if i had to do it all over again,i wouldent touch an IMSB Porsche auto.Worth noting is i contacted my Porsche private shop that are very well established in ontario,Canada to ask if he could install one off thease systems and cost,he told me not to waste my money and the whole IMS issue is blown out off proportion.Strange! I am sure those that have suffered the financial loss don,t feel that way.By the way Porsche lawyers did contact his shop for a customer list for which he declined.

[mikefocke]

What do we know about what happens if you remove the seal?

With product H we have a use the OEM part but remove the seal process. Done in the UK and done for several years. Unknown quantity and unknown miles and unknown analysis of long used bearings. UK forums not full of failure reports.

With product N we have a ceramic part and remove the seal. Lots out there and comparatively lots of years and miles. The forums aren't full of failure reports so we know at least something. Not the ultimate shape of the failure curves but something out to 50k.

With product C we have something similar to the N but small quantities.

And then there are two pressurized oil lubed bearings that are both different in their lubrication method but how many have been used and under what conditions? We have no data. Not even the sketchiest.

Since someone are doing an IMS to reduce risk, how much added risk is there to using one of the lesser known-about products even if their logic appeals to you?

Isn't the one common thing about the two approaches that have been in the wild for the longest that they use the "remove the seal" approach? Doesn't that tell us something about them getting enough lubrication? Maybe not enough to last forever but for a long time?

[moresquirt]

Good feedback Mike but that brings me back to same question then why did Porsche not use that same procedure and remove one seal off the bearing,whay through another sealed bearing in,they have to have a good reason not to.

[Jake Raby]

Simply installing a larger bearing seems pretty limited outlook for thease world famous engineers it seems.

By that time the 9a1 was already a reality. They knew that the crankcase would go away in 2008, and the easiest way to address the issues that were occurring at low engine speeds was to increase bearing diameter, increase surface speeds and reduce load the bearing sees.

Reinventing the wheel for only 2-3 years didn't make any sense. They didn't even alter the crankcase, if they did we'd be able to retrofit M97 bearings, too.

[TuneRS Motorsports]

From all of these posts going back and forth, here and other forums, it seems that the point of our product has become lost. We developed a lubrication kit for the IMS bearing (ANY type bearing, original or aftermarket, steel, ceramic, ball or roller), not a bearing replacement kit as some have said. We have a mechanical component in a harsh environment, with friction and inadequate lubrication – it needs proper lubrication and cooling to increase its reliability.

We don't normally get too involved in message boards because responses can often lead to situations like this. Our posts online in different discussion boards were mainly to answer a few questions from members and to inform the community of a fix for the bearing lubrication problem. Unfortunately there are some board members with competing technologies and a self-preservation agenda that would rather engage in character assassination as well as internet muscle matches than to actually discuss our oil lubrication kit for the IMS bearing. Like someone mentioned, “this is a PR nightmare for companies.” All this back and forth is just confusing Porsche enthusiasts and owners in regards to the whole IMS bearing situation, doing more harm than good to both sides.

In the very near future we will produce a short video explaining our product in more detail, introducing another new product and answering your e-mailed (through our website) or PM’d questions during the next 10 days.

[moresquirt]

Just picked up the Nov issue of Excellence magazine and read the article on IMS issues and the law suit with Porsche.Interesting to note the editors state that the best fix for 06 thru 08 boxsters and 911,s with IMSB is to just pull the trans,flywheel,clutch ect and remove the bearing seal and let the oil from the engine lubricate the bearing rather than wait for the lifetime grease to possibly wash out . I really love this mag and respect the info they offer.Are they engineers,builders,Don,t know but theres lots of ads in there mag this month on IMS fixes from many suppliers with different theorys BUT they don,t recommend any,just to pull the seal.They do state worth getting is the LN engineering oil filter/adapter because if the bearing starts to fail there is no bypass (as with the stock oil filter) and the metal fragments will not run thru the motor causing total destruction before hopefully noticeing it when doing an oil/filter change. This has been a really interesting and informative thread .
Warren

[Jake Raby]

Just picked up the Nov issue of Excellence magazine and read the article on IMS issues and the law suit with Porsche.Interesting to note the editors state that the best fix for 06 thru 08 boxsters and 911,s with IMSB is to just pull the trans,flywheel,clutch ect and remove the bearing seal and let the oil from the engine lubricate the bearing rather than wait for the lifetime grease to possibly wash out . I really love this mag and respect the info they offer.Are they engineers,builders,Don,t know but theres lots of ads in there mag this month on IMS fixes from many suppliers with different theorys BUT they don,t recommend any,just to pull the seal.

Exactly. This is the same thing that we are recommending and it seems to be more than adequate.

The larger M97 diameter IMSB has more load carrying capacity and is proving to be very resilient to lower speed performance in comparison to the M96 diameter bearing. This is the big difference as the surface speeds of the bearings is one of the main issues and the larger IMSB becomes unloaded at a lower engine speed than the M96 bearing diameter does.

Charles and I see no reason to provide fixes for the M97 IMSB, because the small amounts of failures that we see are immeasurable. We have made sure that our patents cover the M97 series engines and while we have already developed the components for them, we have no desire to offer them. We even have a version of the IMS Solution that can be retrofitted to the M97.

If I had an M97 car I'd pull the seal, use JGR DT40 engine oil, install a Spin On filter adaptor (to keep the oil free of debris and therefore keep the seal-less IMSB debris free) and change the oil every 6 months/ 5K miles. Then just drive it. You won't fine me making that statement for any M96 IMSB car.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by moresquirt

Just picked up the Nov issue of Excellence magazine and read the article on IMS issues and the law suit with Porsche.Interesting to note the editors state that the best fix for 06 thru 08 boxsters and 911,s with IMSB is to just pull the trans,flywheel,clutch ect and remove the bearing seal and let the oil from the engine lubricate the bearing rather than wait for the lifetime grease to possibly wash out . I really love this mag and respect the info they offer.Are they engineers,builders,Don,t know but theres lots of ads in there mag this month on IMS fixes from many suppliers with different theorys BUT they don,t recommend any,just to pull the seal.They do state worth getting is the LN engineering oil filter/adapter because if the bearing starts to fail there is no bypass (as with the stock oil filter) and the metal fragments will not run thru the motor causing total destruction before hopefully noticeing it when doing an oil/filter change. This has been a really interesting and informative thread .
Warren

This is something we have been re-iterating for years now, particularly in the case of the 06-08 which uses a 6305 bearing that cannot be serviced without dis-assembly of the engine. Following the research of shops like Hartech and Autofarm in the UK who have been removing seals off bearings for years to allow the sump oil to lubricate the stock bearing, we have recommended doing the same.

Yes, we offer a ceramic hybrid IMS kit for the 06-08 IMS shaft, but honestly, a conventional bearing with the grease seal removed will probably be sufficient. But that said, why not put something in that is better while the engine is apart and same goes for the stock single and dual row bearings if you go through the trouble to service or change it.

If you are going to do it yourself and value your time as free, then maybe a Pelican kit that needs more frequent servicing is the logical choice for some. For others it might be a different choice. It's a free country - you can make any choice you want. However, it is our job to make sure that the information being shared is truthful and accurate, otherwise you can't make a well-informed decision.

As far as the spin on oil filter adapter, it is great to keep debris from recirculating into the engine, but more important is my recommendation of a magnetic drain plug along with frequent oil changes to allow for closer inspection of debris. Knowing there is a problem and being aware of it rather than ignoring it or even worse, not knowing, is the point of these articles and discussions.

[cnavarro]

For the record, the DOF is not to be used with any LN Engineering Retrofit Kit:

tuneRS Direct Oil Feed - Page 2 - 996 Series (Carrera, Carrera 4, Carrera 4S, Targa) - RennTech.org Forums

[mikefocke]

After watching Pedro's video....

Why would a vertical mount display of the bearing throwing oil be relevant to a horizontally mounted one? What testing was done to validate this relationship? Isn't the load at startup (when it is immersed in oil if the seal is removed) that is greatest?

Why wouldn't there be a discussion/description in the September 4th video on removing the outer seal so the oil can more easily enter the bearing? And why not just replace the bearing then?

There seems to be an acceptance at the point the video was made at continuing to use the OEM bearing yet in more recent postings that seemed to have changed.

With the DOF, where does the oil go once it gets past the intermediate bearing ball/race and hits the inner seal? Into the tube like it is said it does now? If a different route, what causes the difference? I see a port in but no port/path out is described.

How would one know on pulling the transmission that they should remove the outer seal? Or is this is even part of the DOF kit install procedure? How would they know to replace the bearing? With what bearing and why isn't that an optional part of the DOF kit?

There is the statement that "people" started reporting failures with the LN kit. Curious where the reports came from as the failure rate from any cause has been said to be less than 1/10 of 1% by LN. I've seen only one forum-posted claim and tracing it back the install was a first time install and very questionable.

The statement was made that there were hundreds of the DOF kits installed as of the posting on 9/4. Can't see why anyone would shy away from saying that when asked here. It is a far cry from a few done recently that might have been assumed.

[Kirk]

There seems to be an acceptance at the point the video was made at continuing to use the OEM bearing yet in more recent postings that seemed to have changed.

Personally I question whether the OEM steel bearing isn't sufficient, with proper lubrication. I just posted on Pelican data for the OEM bearing and it is actually stronger in dynamic loads than the IMS Retrofit ceramic bearing. OEM double row is unquestionably strong enough for the application (again see my Pelican post with the comparison chart). TuneRS doesn't come across as real strong in having to replace the OEM bearing if it is not worn - kind of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" idea. Personally, as long as I'm in there I'm going to at least install a new steel bearing.

With the DOF, where does the oil go once it gets past the intermediate bearing ball/race and hits the inner seal? Into the tube like it is said it does now? If a different route, what causes the difference? I see a port in but no port/path out is described.

See my picture in my last post and in a previous post. The oil drains through the slit between the shaft and the cover. As this is a small opening the area around the bearing will probably fill with oil and maybe even provide back pressure to the in-feed.

How would one know on pulling the transmission that they should remove the outer seal? Or is this is even part of the DOF kit install procedure? How would they know to replace the bearing? With what bearing and why isn't that an optional part of the DOF kit?

TuneRS has not focused their discussions on the bearing, but instead the lubrication kit that they offer. The kit does come with a new SKF steel single row or double row bearing. They are both RS types - which means sealed on one side, open on the other, ready to install. They also offer ceramic bearings that are significantly stronger (static and dynamic load). More details are on their eBay listing:

Porsche Intermediate Shaft Bearing Direct Oil Feed DOF Kit Single Row IMS | eBay

I am familiar now with what comes with the kit because I've called Mike and asked him a ton of questions and he has e-mailed me specs on the stock and ceramic bearings. All of this was to help me make an informed choice for myself and my cars. I've done that and last night I got my first kit from TuneRS. I think I'm going to install this one in my 2003 Carrrera 4S with a single row SKF 6204-RS steel bearing. I will see how that goes and then get a kit for my Boxster.

Kirk Bristol

[southernstar]

Mike, I believe that a new bearing is and always has been an option on the DOF kits - except, of course, for engines with the larger single-row bearing that cannot be replaced without engine tear-down. Indeed, as I recall TuneRS had originally included a new steel bearing with the kit, only the ceramic one being an extra cost option. And Kirk, thanks for posting that photo - it certainly does make clear the limited path available for splash lubrication. I am not saying that it IS insufficient, but it at least begs the question.

Brad

[Jamesp]

What bothers me about depending on splash oil is the sprocket on the IMS shaft looks like it would act as an impeller moving oil away from the bearing.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Kirk

There seems to be an acceptance at the point the video was made at continuing to use the OEM bearing yet in more recent postings that seemed to have changed.

Personally I question whether the OEM steel bearing isn't sufficient, with proper lubrication. I just posted on Pelican data for the OEM bearing and it is actually stronger in dynamic loads than the IMS Retrofit ceramic bearing. OEM double row is unquestionably strong enough for the application (again see my Pelican post with the comparison chart). TuneRS doesn't come across as real strong in having to replace the OEM bearing if it is not worn - kind of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" idea. Personally, as long as I'm in there I'm going to at least install a new steel bearing.

With the DOF, where does the oil go once it gets past the intermediate bearing ball/race and hits the inner seal? Into the tube like it is said it does now? If a different route, what causes the difference? I see a port in but no port/path out is described.

See my picture in my last post and in a previous post. The oil drains through the slit between the shaft and the cover. As this is a small opening the area around the bearing will probably fill with oil and maybe even provide back pressure to the in-feed.

How would one know on pulling the transmission that they should remove the outer seal? Or is this is even part of the DOF kit install procedure? How would they know to replace the bearing? With what bearing and why isn't that an optional part of the DOF kit?

TuneRS has not focused their discussions on the bearing, but instead the lubrication kit that they offer. The kit does come with a new SKF steel single row or double row bearing. They are both RS types - which means sealed on one side, open on the other, ready to install. They also offer ceramic bearings that are significantly stronger (static and dynamic load). More details are on their eBay listing:

Porsche Intermediate Shaft Bearing Direct Oil Feed DOF Kit Single Row IMS | eBay

I am familiar now with what comes with the kit because I've called Mike and asked him a ton of questions and he has e-mailed me specs on the stock and ceramic bearings. All of this was to help me make an informed choice for myself and my cars. I've done that and last night I got my first kit from TuneRS. I think I'm going to install this one in my 2003 Carrrera 4S with a single row SKF 6204-RS steel bearing. I will see how that goes and then get a kit for my Boxster.

Kirk Bristol

Where are you getting your data from on load capacities?

I'm sorry, but our ceramic hybrid bearing can't be weaker than OEM but TuneRS's ceramic hybrid is stronger. It doesn't work that way. There is a given load capacity for a 6204 single row bearing, whether conventional or not. Just by going with a ceramic hybrid will you gain load capacity. In fact, some charts say you might loose a bit, but by all measures, a ceramic hybrid bearing is considered superior to a conventional and is a logical choice for this application.

As far as conventional bearing replacements, there already is a kit with a conventional bearing - the Pelican kit. If you want to allow engine oil to lubricate it, just pull the seal.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Where are you getting your data from on load capacities?

I am getting my load data for the steel bearing from SKF as I plan to use this brand in my personal car. The load data for your bearing came from your website:

"The 6204 bearing currently used in the LN Engineering IMS Retrofit has a dynamic load capacity of 2900#"

If that is not correct, then I would invite you to post static and dynamic load ratings for your IMS Retrofit bearing. But based on this information the SKF 6204 with a dynamic load rating of 3,032# certainly appears to be comparable to the IMS Retrofit, if not marginally better. More details are in the Pelican Parts thread.

Kirk Bristol