3 more IMS reports
 

Here I go again, reporting some IMS issues. Did 3 more cars, One with no problems. one with the bearing seal starting to deteriorate and the bearing no longer turning smoothly (notchy) and one that failed completely.
The one without any problems was on 02 S with 65k on the clock, no visible signs of oil seepage or leaks, oil changed often, driven hard.
The second one with the seal and bearing on its way out was a 04 Carrera with 29k on the clock, oil seepage evident, both RMS and IMS were seeping, well taken care of and driven hard but not often.
The third in an 03 Boxster S with 145 k on the clock, lots of evidence of oil leaks, from all appearances was not treated well and I presume the oil was not changed regularly.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01/0101334017096.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01/0111334017119.jpg
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Possible IMS issues (which could be sub 2%) are troubling no doubt...

Of real concern though is broadcasting identical messages across multiple forums...

Seems marketing / commercial related... not "enthusiast". Hopefully you're a sponsor.

3 more IMS reports - 6speedonline.com Forums

3 more IMS reports - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

I'm sure there are more... :rolleyes:

The reason I post these is for information. I get all my work locally and I work out of my home garage by myself. the 2% figure in what I have seen seems a little low. I'm not trying to stir up business, just putting it out there that there is an engineering problem with these cars and people should be made aware. There are a lot of other cars with the same problem that never get reported. I have found people end up just selling their cars, not even going to the dealers and just taking the loss. this can be prevented with awareness.

I had Harry do my car.........01 S with the new bearing. Pretty hard to drum up business when theres no phone number or even a city referenced in his signature. Most folks here in the local PCA know Harry and his work.

Harry, were the bearings single or double row? Was the motor destroyed on the car that had the failure?

Harry,

What kind of bearing did you go back with? With the number of bearings you've done, mileage, maintenance and the way you say they've been treated, are you tracking any type of trend analysis?

What I'm wondering; is the seal the culprit? Seals that are intact and holding in the grease are fine (according to this thread), but once the seal starts to go and hot engine oil begins to penetrate and wash out the grease that the bearings life is dealt a death sentence. You might want to ask your customers what type and brand of engine oil they used? Could certain brands be deteriorating the bearing seal? I would expect the seal is made of neoprene or some other type of oil resistant material, but you never know.

With that said, in your opinion, are OEM bearings fine as a replacement part as long as the seal is inspected?

Just had my IMS bearing replaced by my long time mechanic - specializes in Porsche and BMW for both street and race/track cars. The owner is a solid engine builder. Here's the background... 2001 Boxster S with 15,000 miles. I bought the car last year from my friend with about 12,000. It was his wife's car and the dealer maintained it each year. She never really drove it much (as you can tell) as they quickly had a few kids.

I had no external leaks but once the started tearing apart the car, my mechanic said the IMS bearing was showing signs of a light leak. It was a single row bearing.

I used the L&N kit, also did RSM and AO separator.

Glad I replaced it if for nothing else than my own peace of mind. Especially as the car wasn't used much over the past 10 years and wasn't driven hard... before me :)

Vince

Vince, can you pm me the indy mechanic? That's close enough to me for when the car is no longer under warranty.

Everything I've learned about my Boxster S I've learned on forums like this one from guys like Harry. He knows what he's talking about and he's just putting the information out here. Which I appreciate (please don't stop). What we all do with that info is up to us, is it not ? Whether we take it to him for repair, or someone else or nobody at all for that matter....I like being informed and educated about my car. I consider it free knowledge.

So to the Jake Rabys' and Mike Fockes' and Harrys', etc. out here on these multiple forums, please keep educating the masses as you have been.

Its appreciated.

I think these posts have very good information in them. I would like to see the inside of the bearing of the 02 with 65k on it though just as a reference.

I just want to got into a little more detail on car #2. the flange seal was seeping, upon pulling the bearing cover, the bearing appeared to be OK, the center spun freely or so it seemed. It was not until I pulled the bearing out that I realized something is going on. There was a lot of residue build up inside the shaft(something not visible with bearing in place) the bearing itself had no oil or grease in it. Normally when you take a healthy bearing out, lay it on it's side, a lot of oil will drain out. This one had none, holding in my and and turning it revealed what felt like a mild ratcheting. another words the bearing was starting to break down. Did a thorough inspection of the filter, took an oil sample sent off to Blackstone (has not come back yet) there were no traces of anything in the filter. All of thes cars had the single row bearing.
My point being, just taking the bearing cover off is not a good enough inspection, you must take the bearing out. If I had made the call that the bearing was OK and put in just a new seal I would have had a law suit on my hands in 2 or 3 months for sure. Since you would have to take the bearing out for proper inspection then it only makes sense to go ahead and replace it and as of now it appears that LN Engineering bearing is the best solution.
I hope that answers all your questions
thank you for your support

What about Pelicans bearing?

This is a very interesting question. Which came first the chicken or the egg?
It makes sense that once the seal start leaking that it deprives oil to the bearing which it's not suppose to be there in the first place. I have found on every car except the blown bearings that there was an abundance of oil behind the bearing. When you pull the bearing out you get about half a quart of oil gushing out from the shaft. I sill remember doing my first bearing and not realizing there was that much oil behind it. I had to change my pants. (oil soaked for those who might be thinking something else)
I think that when a bearing starts to fail, you will get some overheating and possibly minute vibrations that contribute to the leak.
IMO it is better to be safe then sorry, 9 times out of 10 the engine will destroy itself when the bearing goes, then its gets very expensive

There is some good info right here, especially from a person that has done plenty of bearings. Thanks :cheers:

Yep, it looks like this:

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1334194578.jpg

Why the best
 

No it raises the question of what aspects of the LN bearing cause you to say it is the best when compared to other (and potentially cheaper) IMS bearing replacement kits being offered. There are now about 5 solutions being offered with more in development...

Kind of reminds me of my last colonoscopy.:eek:

Harry, You FEAR MONGER! How dare you share this information and scare people! :D

This month is our two yearly IMS Retrofit Clinic here.. We do this in April and October each yard and this year I'd not dare post what we have found.

Being hated for telling the truth has to be a 21st century thing.. Its all supposed to be Unicorns and Rainbows, right?

Thanks for useful information, Harry. And thinks for taking the time to post it in multiple forums. There's a lot of owners out there that may not subscribe to this forum (although they should!).

Bob (with the new dashboard)

The cheaper versions are utilizing a cheaper bearing...

Ask around.. Once you find out "who" developed the Pelican bearing... you'll realize we have two reliable replacements. The rest will be "guesses" as to whether they last or not. I cant take the chance on a "cheaper" version.



B

I *think* I'm up too 20+ failures. I have an assortment of bad IMS shafts sitting on a shelf.

I should post a pic!! LOL



B

and it's people like you who drive the people away that actually work on these cars and choose to share *some* knowledge.

It's NO fun battling a person online who works on "their" car, but comes across as "all knowing".. please give me shop owners and factory trained techs.. please..


B

The whole subject of IMS failure is quite interesting.

Over here in the UK, the upgrade is a lot less common / popular. I've been using UK based forums for the past two years and can only recall one report of a failure on a 986. I'm not sure how many users exactly there are on said forums, but it's got to total many hundreds.

It's very hard to really judge, and I'll probably learn the hard way, but I don't feel it's worth the expense on my 100k mile early 2.5 and its double-row bearing. Well, certainly not right now. If I'm feeling financially fit when the time comes for a new clutch, I might reconsider.

If I felt like these cars could be made rock solid with a new bearing, I'd probably be more keen, too. But I'm not convinced that's the case with all the other failure modes out there.

This has probably been covered before, but I'm lazy. How would I know if my replaced 2.5 motor, put in the car in 2003/2004 has a single row or double row? It was a Porsche replacement motor if I'm not mistaken.

I have seen NO 2.5 failures. Doesn't mean it won't/cant happen, but I have seen none and I have been involved with the cars since 1999, racing/time trial/autoX since late 04. The 2.5 doesn't turn the RPM that the 2.7/3.2/3.4 turn, it doesn't see the same heat etc.

I have pulled apart a LOT (20+) blown 2.5's, a couple had questionable bearings, but none of them had failed completely.



B

without pulling the flywheel off, I know of no way to tell


Jake?

Brad, this kinda sucks. I've been patiently waiting for my motor to blow so I could tell the wife "Oh well, I guess I gotta replace it... Might as well upgrade it to a 3.4"

You are not helping my strategy.

Brad I have a 2.5 now that has jumped timing but I have not pulled the bearings out to see if that was the cause. I retimed the engine but one of the cylinders has low compression. comming out the bottom end that's why I did not bother with the IMS. Now, however, I will have to pull the bearing to see it that was the cause. Will let you guys now end of next week

thanks for your reply, I needed a good laugh. BTW your not far off

Jake, tell me about it. I stayed out of it for a while but so many people just put their head in the sand and assume it doesn't apply to them. So I get bashed a lot,( as I know you and LN Eng do). One of forums took the post off completely saying that another member (supposedly not a sponsor) complained that I was promoting myself with the exact same post. Go figure.

I was one of those guys that was a naysayer lol...until I saw the bearing that came out of my car, now I am glad I replaced it!

I don't try to force an IMS upgrade on any of my customers, but the people who think it's a 2% issue are totally delusional.

I have a small shop, and I've seen three total failures in the last twelve months. Yes, failure meaning $20k of scrap metal.

I have a current customer that doesn't even want to discuss it. He says "That's hyped-up hooey".


OK. Good luck.

So the real test for the IMS retrofit's efficacy is upon installing it can you then: lug the engine, drive the car very few miles a year, change the oil every 15 k miles and drive the car short distances in traffic with no ill effects. If the answer is no then all of this is hype you have merely swapped a part for a more expensive version.

Land, Assuming the bearing is higher quality than OEM it doesn't seem like a fool's assumption to believe there would be some improvement in longevity. As for lugging the engine IMO that should be avoided as good driving practice, I would never wait 15K for oil either no matter what bearing is there. IMO, the real issue is this, if you have a manual transmission will a cheaper bearing last the same amount of time as the clutch disc? If it does, than why not toss a fresh one in with every clutch? In this scenario, only a tiptronic would benefit from a longer life bearing job.

If you cannot hand the car to a Luddite and have them drive it without a long list of do's and don'ts then you have not solved the IMS problem, you are simply swapping parts. It is a fairly straightforward concept.

Some will kiss the arse of the IMS sellers and some will not. But in truth the ceramic bearings will meet the same fate as the factory bearings. It will just take longer. The problem is not fixed and therefore it is pish posh to think you are doing the lords work by swapping cheap bearings for pricey ones.

That is my point.

Vehicles, like forums can not be made foolproof. On time & preventative maintenance usually pays off & I am confident the LN IMS bearing is the best it can be for the inherent weakness of the original design. Thankfully we have options.

Yes, I am thankful that we have options as well. I have expressed my intention to use the Pelican IMS solution.

I am of the opinion (like Ghost) that the clutch parts list includes IMS as routine maintenance. An easy concept not worthy of all the hype.

The "dare to speak the truth" stuff is over the top for me, but Jake usually is over the top.

Ims
 

I have an 04 BoxterS. 57k miles. I recently heard a tinny screeching every 2-3 seconds at idle coming from the rear IMS area of the engine. I change oil and filter every 2500 - 3000 miles. I drive it hard on occasion but also do some in town driving. No lugging , no abuse. I'll pull the filter to inspect it, but I will not start the engine. Needless to say , I'll be pissed if it's the IMS bearing. Porsche engineers knew well ahead of 2004 that there was an inherent design flaw and should have redesigned sooner than 09. My Porsche dealer denied seeing any problems with IMS bearings in Boxters when I was there six months ago. I'll re post when I have the noise professionally diagnosed. Any suggestions on a good independent garage in the Portland or Salem Oregon area that will install a non Porsche replacement bearing ?

In Atlanta Jim Ellis Porsche (the dealership) will install the any IMS you want and quite reasonably priced as well. So it does not HAVE to be an independent shop.

What are the range of prices charged for the bearing replacement. I know the LN eng. bearing cost is $600 plus.

mine was $1900 including oil change and updated RMS