Brake pads and DEs

[tommy986]

Originally Posted by ray96disco

Tommy, who built your exhaust? Looks good. How much weight did you save? Change handling by losing weight at the tail? Have you measured performance or do you have specs? Didn't mean to hijack but it caught my attention.


Thanks, Ray.

That isn't my car, just a picture I had on file.

The exhaust was done by Precision Chassis Works

[Gator Bite]

Originally Posted by tamarsha

I am planning to do my second DE in April. Part of the tech inspection is to make sure the brakes have at least half the pad remaining. My front pads are looking like they are about 60-70% worn so I need to do something about them.

So the question is, do I get a set of track pads that might get used once or twice a year, or do I get some new street pads? I was looking at the Hawk HPS for street pads. Not sure about track pads.

If I do get track pads I should probably replace both front and rear sets. But if I go with street pads, can I get away with just changing the front pads?

If I go with street pads, should I put the new ones in just for the track day and then swap them back out with the warn OEM pads that still have some life on them and hold onto the newer pads till the OEMs are worn out completely?

Any thoughts?

Todd

I have to agree with a lot of the other replies here, and I'd like to share my experience too.

I have a 987 Boxster Coupe, sometimes referred to as a Cayman S. Anyway, I found that the answer to your question depends very much on your experience on the track. When I was a Green level driver, a beginner, I was able to get 25,000 miles including 12 track days out of my front pads. They were two years old. This past July I dropped in a set of Pagid Blues, hoping they would be a good compromise, somewhere between track and street. Well, my driving improved drastically this past summwer, thanks lots of seat time. I burned through those Blues in 3 months, less than 5,000 miles, about 6 track days....!!!

I was pounding these brakes, and in many cases gassing them off (over heating them). When you super heat a pad past its maximum working temperature, they lose grip and just wear out. I would have saved a pile of money if I had stepped up to the Pagid Yellows, which is what I replaced the Blues with. These pads don't gas off or fade like the Blues or the OEs, and because of that they are likely to last very long. The jury is still out. Check back with me later this summer.

How many track days have you done? What group are you in? If you're in the beginner group, the OE pads are fine. If your in the intermediate group or higher, step up and get a good track pad. It will save you money in the long run.

In regard to changing the brakes on just one axle, don't do it. The new pads are going to have a different coeficient of friction, which is going to change your brake bias. If you want the same balanced braking that you have now, don't mix and match pads front to back.

[tamarsha]

The track day in April will only be my second DE. I do not plan on over driving the brakes... I hope.

Looking at my rear pads I am thinking that they could probably be replaced. My plan right now is to replace both the front and rear sets with an OEM / street performance pad. I will also do a brake flush and heck, while the wheels are off, add some GT3 brake ducts.

So, any recommendations on a set of pads? I was thinking Textar, Padgid Blue (4-2 or 5?), Hawk HPS, or EBC red stuff.

I like the idea of lower dust, but I do not want anything that will perform less than the OEM pads I have on there now. The car gets driven about 2 days a week now and even more in warmer weather so I don't want to lose my street drive-ability.

[Gator Bite]

Originally Posted by tamarsha

The track day in April will only be my second DE. I do not plan on over driving the brakes... I hope.

Looking at my rear pads I am thinking that they could probably be replaced. My plan right now is to replace both the front and rear sets with an OEM / street performance pad. I will also do a brake flush and heck, while the wheels are off, add some GT3 brake ducts.

So, any recommendations on a set of pads? I was thinking Textar, Padgid Blue (4-2 or 5?), Hawk HPS, or EBC red stuff.

I like the idea of lower dust, but I do not want anything that will perform less than the OEM pads I have on there now. The car gets driven about 2 days a week now and even more in warmer weather so I don't want to lose my street drive-ability.

Honestly, if this is your second track day, stick with the OE Textar pads. They will be more than enough for a long time. They are great on the street, even in the hardest braking situations. When you get to the point where on the track you start feeling a long semi soft pedal when braking hard, then it's time to think about track pads. (That's not your fluid boiling, it's friction loss on the pad.)

Stay away from the Pagid Blues. In my opinion, they are junk. I was not at all satisfied with them. They bit only marginally better than the OEs, but made a lot of noise and wore out really fast.

Pagid Orange and Yellows are awesome, but they squeel like a stuck pig on the street (and on the track too).

For track use, you should flush at least once every 2 years. I recommend once a year for track use.

[Gator Bite]

Thsi is why I was dissapointed with the Pagid Blues.

This is what they looked like on July 17th.




And this is what they looked like on October 18th, after 4,825 miles, 6 track days and only 3 months:

[Gator Bite]

So why not just get a set of super bad *** track pads and leave them in there? I'll tell you why, no - better I'll show you. Take a short ride on the street in my Cayman S with Pagid Yellows in the car (right after a track event).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckwxPwwhCoY

[tamarsha]

Looks like the Yellows are a good way to let them know you are coming! That is a little loud!

Ok, any experience with Pagid RS 4-2-1 Black? They are saying it is street pad for light track duty.

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

So why not just get a set of super bad *** track pads and leave them in there? I'll tell you why, no - better I'll show you. Take a short ride on the street in my Cayman S with Pagid Yellows in the car (right after a track event).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckwxPwwhCoY

[Gator Bite]

Originally Posted by tamarsha

Looks like the Yellows are a good way to let them know you are coming! That is a little loud!

Ok, any experience with Pagid RS 4-2-1 Black? They are saying it is street pad for light track duty.

The RS 4-2-1 are the Blues, and I honestly can't think of any situation under which I'd recommend them to a friend. They are only slightly better on the track than the OEs, but inferior in regard to noise and wear.

[tamarsha]

Man... All of these options are getting confusing. Here is the info from pagid on the Black RS 4-2-1 pads.

http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/products/rs421-black-carbon-based.php


This is from a vendor site.

http://www.imgt3performance.com/products/2000-2004-porsche-boxster-s-986-pagid-rs-4-2-1-black-sport-front-brake-pads/?F_VehicleId=60&F_All=Y

Do you think it is the Blue compound painted black?

[Topless]

Originally Posted by tamarsha

Man... All of these options are getting confusing.

Suggestion:
Call these guys and tell them your driving plans, ask for recommendations. They know brakes and understand customer service. www.porterfield-brakes.com

[Gator Bite]

Forget about the color, and focus on the compound. RS 4-2-1 is what it is. That's what I had, and I didn't like them. Save your money dude. Get another set of stock Textars (made by Pagid), or put the money toward a set of Pagid Oranges (stock pad used on current GT-3 RS).

I'm telling you right now, if you buy these RS 4-2-1s, you're going to be sorry. My experience isn't unique. I have several friends who have also used these pads and they were equally dissapointed. It's not that these are bad pads, it's that the OE pads are so good that there is little to no different between them and the RS 4-2-1, and in some ways the OEs are better (noise control & wear).

[thstone]

I installed cross-drilled rotors (Cquence) and EBC Redstuff pads about two weeks ago. So far, its been all break in with lots of dust and some brake squealing - as expected and as described in the EBC info that comes with the pads.

The pads seem to be quieting down now (~200 city miles) and the rotors have a bluish-grey color. I'll do a final bedding session this weekend per the EBC instructions.

Thus far, impossible (way too early) to really say how they compare to the stock pads. I'll post an update later this month after the break-in period is done and another post after my first DE on March 5th.

[thstone]

Ok, EBC Redstuff pads and Cquence drilled rotors are bedded in and working great.

Break-in period was almost 300 miles of city driving. Lots of squeal and dust during that time.

No sqeal at all now and dust is only about 1/4 of factory pads. That means that I'll get the same dust in a month that I used to get in week. Its a huge improvement in terms of dust.

Braking performance feels excellent with much more grip during a hard stop from freeway speeds. No problems on cool mornings when pads are cold.

Will report back again after my first DE at Streets of Willow on 2/26.

[jmatta]

Did you do some multiple high speed stops to bed the pads properly? It is important to coat the rotors with pad material so you don't get pulsations or severe wear, as you use the brakes harder. Driving on the street does not allow the pad material to get hot enough to properly bed the pads. I'm not sure what instructions EBC supply, but a simple search will give you good bedding guidelines.

[thstone]

Yes, I followed the EBC instructions to repeat 5 hard stops from 60mph to 20mph and then drove around without using the brakes to let them cool.

Thanks for the reminder.

[911_lurker]

Quote: "Yes, I followed the EBC instructions to repeat 5 hard stops from 60mph to 20mph and then drove around without using the brakes to let them cool. "

If you use your pads on the street, you need to rebed them before the track. The abrasive properties of the pads erases the transfer layer on the rotor under street use.

To the OP, what tires are you using? This will point to how much pad you can get away with. With R-comps, you can use just about any track pad. With street tires, you need to balance stopping power with tire grip. You don't want to hit ABS every time. Similarly, you don't want to run R-comps with OEM pads - you'll chew the pads away and likely boil your fluid. It's a system, so you need to match components as best you can.

That being said, rotors and fluid are the easy part of the system. Get any high temp fluid [Motul, SRF, etc] and you're good for street and track. Rotors are mostly a non-issue - even if you use OEM. You'll burn through a set of cross-drilled OEM/Zimmerman rotors pretty quick [cracks between holes], but they are cheap. Upgrading to slotted or dimpled will cost you more money, but last longer before they crack out. Once you start tracking more, you probably won't ever wear a set of rotors under the minimum thickness.

PFC and Pagid endurance pads work well for street and track use. If you don't like squealing, just swap to OEM pads after each event. It's quick once you get the hang of it. If you have a backup set of wheels with track tires, this is a really good solution.

If brake cooling becomes an issue (which is unlikely), post another thread, there are a few things you can do.

-td

[thstone]

**UPDATE**

Ran my first DE at the Streets of Willow last Saturday. The Cquence drilled rotors and EBC Redstuff brake pads performed flawlessly. Outstanding braking with no fade at all. Dust level still very low.

Will drive the car daily to work this week and have another DE this coming Sunday at SoW. Thus far, couldn't be happier with this setup for both street and DE track use.

Will run Sunday and then take a look at the pad wear next week and report back with how they are look after a few thousand street miles and two track days.

[pcs5978]

The best OEM performance element of a Boxster, on the track, is the brakes. This is particularly true if you have the "S" version. You can out brake any other car.

The weak link is the rotors - particularly on the front. With heat cycling, the OEM cross-drilled rotors develop cracks from hole to hole. When this occurs, they need to be replaced. The Performance Friction, two-piece, dimpled, front rotors are a good alternative. Cracks aren't a problem with these rotors, and when the rotor wears down, you can keep the top hat and simply replace the rotor element.

OEM street pads will not hold up under track conditions - even DE events. Pagid, PFC, and Hawk all make track-worthy alternatives. My current preference is Hawk DTC 70's on the front and DTC 60's on the rear. Replacing the pads is a simple procedure. You need a jack, an 18 mm socket, a needle nose pliers, and a vice grips. If you drive your car on the street, put the OEM pads in the calipers. Replace them with "track pads" when you go to the track.

If you're on the track with your car, you need to have a high-temp brake fluid. There are many options. I currently use Motul 600, but there are others. High performance brake fluid is hydroscopic, and needs to be changed periodically.

If you do a number of track events each year, you'll need to have the calipers rebuilt. How often, depends on how many miles you do on the track, and how much you use the brakes.

If you have a 986 or 987 with PSM, the computer will use the rear brakes to stabilize the car - of course this depends on how you drive on track. If you're finding that the rear pads are wearing out and the calipers are turning "purple", this is your problem. Turn the PSM off, or slow down. Of note - If you've turned off the PSM, when you activate the ABS, the computer will turn the PSM back on.

Ultimately, the trick to going fast around a track is to not use the brakes! Boxsters (and Caymans) are wonderfully balanced cars. If you can learn how to do it, you can get around a track using the brakes sparingly.

I'm still learning.


PCS5978
www.M96infosource.com

[ekam]

Originally Posted by pcs5978

Ultimately, the trick to going fast around a track is to not use the brakes!

LOL!!!! Comedy gold right there.

[thstone]

**UPDATE #2**

Ran the second DE in two weeks at the Streets of Willow yesterday. Tons of track time with only two run groups so I got 3-4 hours of total track time and was exhausted!. How do I explain to my boss that I'm too tired from track driving to want to come to work on Monday's? (but I made it in anyway).

The Cquence drilled rotors and EBC Redstuff brake pads still performed flawlessly. Definitely got the brakes hot as I was working on braking later without engaging ABS (its a fine line!). Overall, I had outstanding braking with no fade even after two back to back 25 min sessions (with a 5 min pit). Dust level still very low.

With about 2,000 street miles and two DE's, this setup appears to be working well for both street and DE track use.

Will pull a few brake pads and do a close inspection of the rotors and report back on wear this weekend when I planned to work on the car anyway (oil change, etc.)