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Old 09-13-2010, 03:33 PM   #1
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anyone put a m97 or mA1 in a 986?

I want to race in scca street prepared, but since this swap is allowed, I must consider it to be competitive eventually. I would like to know what would be involved. it looks like porsche has x engines available for about 13k, no core price is listed, strangely. the new part lists for about 27k. if anyone knows the specifics of what complications are involved in either of these swaps:the m97 or the mA1, please elaborate here.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:29 PM   #2
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In two words: Good luck. The new A96 cars are running Siemens management, not Bosch as all previous cars did. The engine management is COMPLETELY different. I can't even begin to imagine how much of a 9X7-2 car's electronics you would need to make this work.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:53 PM   #3
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Pardon my ignorance, but what's a mA1 engine?
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:30 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudsurfer
In two words: Good luck. The new A96 cars are running Siemens management, not Bosch as all previous cars did. The engine management is COMPLETELY different. I can't even begin to imagine how much of a 9X7-2 car's electronics you would need to make this work.
Can you use an aftermarket ECU? Motec can run a throttle by wire engine with variable valve timing. Not sure if anything special is needed for the high pressure fuel rail.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by clickman
Pardon my ignorance, but what's a mA1 engine?
The 987.2 and 997.2 engine.
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by blue2000s
Can you use an aftermarket ECU? Motec can run a throttle by wire engine with variable valve timing. Not sure if anything special is needed for the high pressure fuel rail.
I would think Motec could do this, but would require quite a bit of tuning to make it work right.

I just don't see why you'd want to do this swap....
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cloudsurfer
I would think Motec could do this, but would require quite a bit of tuning to make it work right.

I just don't see why you'd want to do this swap....

as far as I can see, the newer engine(987-2 3.4 as in the spyder) with headers, free-flow exhaust(no catalyst), and an aftermarket controler would give me more power than I could get out of any m96/m97 boxster/cayman engine with no internal modifications. If I were to swap in any engine from a 996 I would have to race in classes that are pretty much unlimited race only, stripped out specials. this is the only class other than stock that a street boxster can race in, and unfortunately, all boxsters and caymans are calssed together, but I am allowed to update the engine, and or transmission assembly, etc.. I also can run any induction or exhaust that meets noise requirements.

I would think the easiest thing to do though would be to retune the siemens unit , and delete some of the auxillary functions(catalyst monitoring, AIR, etc.), while maybe adding varioram if not equipped, and using an intake setup from a 997s with varioram.

or maybe an aftermarket setup, like motec, with individual throttle bodies on each port, with the plenum above, kinda like the bmw m-motors were.

Last edited by autodoctor911; 09-14-2010 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by autodoctor911
as far as I can see, the newer engine(987-2 3.4 as in the spyder) with headers, free-flow exhaust(no catalyst), and an aftermarket controler would give me more power than I could get out of any m96/m97 boxster/cayman engine with no internal modifications. If I were to swap in any engine from a 996 I would have to race in classes that are pretty much unlimited race only, stripped out specials. this is the only class other than stock that a street boxster can race in, and unfortunately, all boxsters and caymans are calssed together, but I am allowed to update the engine, and or transmission assembly, etc.. I also can run any induction or exhaust that meets noise requirements.

I'd be very interested to read these rules.....
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:28 AM   #9
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To run effectively in SCCA street prepared I expect it would be both simpler and less $$ to start with a Cay S platform rather than try to swap a mA1 3.4 into an older 986. The DME nightmare is very real.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:14 PM   #10
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Question

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To run effectively in SCCA street prepared I expect it would be both simpler and less $$ to start with a Cay S platform rather than try to swap a mA1 3.4 into an older 986. The DME nightmare is very real.
cheaper??? to buy a 2009 Cayman S???

what about the Siemens dme is a nightmare? is it hard to crackthe software?
hard to find hardware to reflash?

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Old 09-14-2010, 01:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autodoctor911
cheaper??? to buy a 2009 Cayman S???
2009 Cay S... maybe not. 2006 Cay S... very likely
what about the Siemens dme is a nightmare? is it hard to crackthe software?
hard to find hardware to reflash?
As I understand it the 987.2 DME won't shake hands with a 986 chassis. I know of no one who has resolved this yet. Todd Holyoak has spent more time inside the Porsche DME than anyone I know. Perhaps he will chime in.

I don't see how a 987.2/3.4L motor into a 986 meets the rules of street prepared anyways. Did I miss something?
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Topless
As I understand it the 987.2 DME won't shake hands with a 986 chassis. I know of no one who has resolved this yet. Todd Holyoak has spent more time inside the Porsche DME than anyone I know. Perhaps he will chime in.

I don't see how a 987.2/3.4L motor into a 986 meets the rules of street prepared anyways. Did I miss something?
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html
Todd and I have talked about this and I think the consensus is that it's just not worth trying.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:06 PM   #13
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engine update/backdate rule

according to scca street prepared rules engines, and or transaxles may be exchanged between a 2.5 boxster and a cayman S per section 15.1C:


C. Equipment and/or specifi cations may be exchanged between different
years and models of a vehicle if (a) the item is standard on the
year/model from which it was taken, and (b) the years/ models are
listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes). The
updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may
not be altered, modifi ed, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate
the updating/backdating allowance. Standard factory installation
methods, locations, and confi gurations are allowed. The updating
and/or backdating of engines, transmissions, transaxles, and/or unibodies
must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may
not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections
of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the
SEB and published in the offi cial SCCA publication.
D. Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an
equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example,
alternate computer module control of ignition settings or fuel
injection is allowed.
APPENDIX A - AUTOMOBILE CLASSES
...
STREET PREPARED CLASS B (BSP)
....
Porsche
911 (1965-89) (3.2L max, nonturbo)
928
Boxster & Cayman (all)

I actually think this is an oversight, and the 987-2 cars at least will be reclassified into ASP since in stock class they are in SuperStock, where as the 987s is in
A stock and the987 2.7 and 986 S is in B stock, and the lowly 2.7/2.5 986 is in C stock,

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Old 09-14-2010, 03:31 PM   #14
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I have a 2.5 99 model, and really want to go beyond what stock class allows(not much in scca). I at least want to put gt3 front arms, sway bars, row m030 rear springs, some soft front lowering springs,and headers. but in stock class, I can't even take the snorkel out! but in street prepared I'm up against a 2011 cayman S or spyder, or a solstice GXP or a c4 corvette, or a Dtamaso Pantera!!!

I would really like to see the 2.5/2.7 boxster dropped to CSP, but I am pretty sure that isn't going to happen. there are also a lot of other slower, non competitive cars in this class. I guess, you just have to get a really expensive car to race anything other than stock classes in scca, since they group so many cars together, or get one of the lucky cars that gets grouped into a lower class like CSP,DSP,FSP. actually, I just checked and the non-turbo solstice/sky are in CSP, as well as most other Cstock cars I race against. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to race in CSP with the same types of cars I race against in stock class. would the allowed modifications in street prepared make my boxster gain more of an advantage over these cars than it already has now?
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:35 PM   #15
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dme chassis relations

Is it not possible to get by without the functions that the dme needs to talk to other modules for. all I want my ABS to do is keep the brakes from locking up.
if the lights are on for abs, but it still does that, I don't care. can the siemens dme not be programmed to do the bare minimum to run the engine, and ignore everything else?

I certainly would want to at least eliminate AIR and catalyst monitoring. why not eliminate the functions that relate to the other modules? I am not going to be running a tiptronic or a PDK.

bty what do the pro racers use for a dme in gt3 racing? they have no abs, or any other modules on board, related to a street car.

in fact, isn't there a GT3 production model with no ABS? COUld you not use the stock programming for that dme as a starting point?

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Old 09-14-2010, 04:47 PM   #16
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ok, if it is going to be a lot easier, how much less horsepower is a 3.4 m97 going to make than an equivalent mA1 with unrestricted modifications to intake and exhaust, but stock internals?

stock horsepower

m97.21 295 hp
m97.22 303 hp
mA1.21 314 hp boxster S 2010
mA1.21 325 hp cayman S 2010

but does the direct injection/higher compression give more tuning potential?

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Old 09-14-2010, 04:48 PM   #17
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I don't know. Anything is possible with enough determination and money. It looks like square peg/round hole to me though. I know two shops that have been attempting similar swaps for a year now and both have hit the DME wall.

If it were me (and it isn't) I would probably either keep the car and build it to spec rules to go racing with a thriving Boxster spec community in Texas or find a nice 2006 Cay S for cheap and go pound SCCA street prepared class. Either way could be fun. I get my kicks turning the steering wheel, not laying awake at night trying to unravel Porsche DME protocol. To each his own.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:56 PM   #18
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the boxster spec class you mention, can this be done and still drive on the street with a competitive car?

give me a link to the santioning agency that is in texas. is it a PCA class?, or NASA?

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Old 09-14-2010, 08:31 PM   #19
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looking at a 997-2 system, and how everything is run, I am suprised at how simple it actually is. other manufacturers direct injection systems are much more complicated, with either a mechanical pump setup or high voltage injectors, with a separate driver module, etc.. Porsche seems to have simplified gasoline direct injection quite a bit, compared to others. this setup doesn't seem much different from a normal fuel injection, since the injectors run at 12v fired directly from dme.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autodoctor911
the boxster spec class you mention, can this be done and still drive on the street with a competitive car?

give me a link to the santioning agency that is in texas. is it a PCA class?, or NASA?
Both. Texas PCA has the most active Boxster Spec region in the country. Your car would fit right in.

A street legal competitive Time Trial car (my class)- Boxster Spec X
http://www.renntrack.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?253-Boxster-Spec-Racing


A stripped and caged race car for wheel to wheel club racing- Boxster Spec R
http://www.texasspec.com/index.php?/forum/3-spec-boxster/
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