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Old 08-26-2008, 06:53 PM   #21
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Hey Jake, I have owned two Boxsters over the past 9 years and logged over 80,000 miles on this platform. Welcome newcomer. Just as 914 owners expect value and reasonable prices Boxster owners who enter used Boxster market expect value.

I was never willing to spend $15K to $20K for a turn key 914 motor. However your kits for 914 motors are very cost effective. If you are thinking of offering a Boxster kit that includes Nickie block, crank pistons, heads etc for $5000 I'll buy one!

Jake what is the cost of a 2.5 turn key from you? Have you actually built a motor using the Nickie case yet and ran it for any length of time? Or is all this hypothetical like many of your 914 motors? You know best way to test a Boxster motor is to build one for your biggest skeptic. I'd be happy to thrash one for you. I have a running 2.5 with 100K on it that I plan to AX and track.

Jake, Do your motors carry a warranty like porsche replacements? Also how does Nickie block compare to what Autofarm is doing?

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf

Last edited by grantsfo; 08-26-2008 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantsfo
ake, I have owned two Boxsters over the past 9 years. Just as 914 owners expect value and reasonable prices Boxster owners who enter used Boxster market expect value.

I was never willing to spend $15K to $20K for a turn key 914 motor. Your kits for 914 motors are very cost effective. If you were thinking of offering a Boxster kit that includes Nickie block, crank pistons, heads etc for $5000 I'd buy one!

Jake what is the cost of a 2.5 turn key from you? Have you actually built a motor using the Nickie case yet and ran it for any length of time? Or is all this hypothetical like many of your 914 motors? You know best way to test a Boxster motor is to build one for your biggest skeptic. I'd be happy to thrash one for you. I have a running 2.5 with 100K on it that I plan to AX and track.
The prices are on his site. I don't know if he is allowed to post prices and such or what the rules are. I will tell you what I read. It appears that a 2.5 rebuild without bigger bore and head work is $10K. That's a great deal if you happen to pick up a Boxster with a blown engine for $6-7K and about the same as an engine from Porsche.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby
...
At the current time most of our main focus has been on the 2.5 and 2.7 engines as they are the oldest and have the greatest failure rates. The 3.2 is a damn good engine compared to them, or even the 3.4 engine as they seldom if ever have catastrophic failures and finding one with a D chunk failure is very difficult. This is due to their more substantial cylinders.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby
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I know all about that.. 85% of my continental US based clients for the aircooled market are in California.. I have become well versed with the Cali fuel and know how to manipulate it's use.. Unfortunately nothing we'll do will pass smog in Cali., or at least that what I must tell you up front. Creativity on your end, well.....
...
I thought I read somewhere the 2.7 had much more substantial cylinder walls than the 3.2 and was less likely to suffer engine failure. Is the 3.2 or 3.4 engine a better bet if looking to buy a car, in terms of less likely to have an engine failure?

Are you serious about nothing you do will pass Calif smog? Our smog requirements seem to get progressively tougher (and more expensive) every few years! Since most of these are daily drivers, what are the chances one of your rebuilt Boxster motors will make the car not legally drivable on Calif roads?
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:07 PM   #24
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It seems that the 3.2 engines have the least cylinder substantial cylinder failures because the block is the same as the 3.4, but the bore is smaller.. This adds some integrity to the cylinder for sure.

We have yet to find a 3.2 core with a cylinder failure, but Charles at LN says that he has the first cases coming in now from other shops that have failures, so we'll be able to study those soon.

As far as cost goes, I don't want to mention any of that here, because I certainly don't want t push the rules, being a newbie and all... Its all posted on the website on the online store.

And YES Grant, we have running engines with the Nickies upgrades already done. My '98 will have one going into it around Thanksgiving.

As for emissions in Cali, well I was speaking "performance" engines, not stockers. I am mandated to tell anyone that is in California that anything we do to an engine isn't going to be street legal.

As for warranty- This is still up in the air and we'll be addressing it soon as the first engines make their way into the hands of users soon. None of those guys were concerned with warranty as they appreciate what we have created and want to share the experience of being one of the "first"...

One thing is for sure, no performance engine will receive a warranty, I learned that from my 914 experience and haven't had a warranty practice in 10 years. Don't race it if you don't want to risk it!
I will say that the Porsche warranty isn't honored in a lot of instances and plenty of evidence of that is right here on these boards. If we offer a warranty, it'll be very well outlined and the owner will have practices that must be carried out and recommendations that must be followed.

Last edited by Jake Raby; 08-27-2008 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:43 AM   #25
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Jake - I applaud your effort on the M96 engine. From your post above, you mention that you address the IMS on these engines but I don't where this is described on your site.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:47 AM   #26
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Jake and I have been working together on numerous projects for years and years and it just seemed logical for us to team up on addressing some of the areas with these engines that could use improvement and make them accessible.

We've been developing and doing the updated 2.5 and 3.4 blocks on a one by one basis now for probably almost 2 years or somewhere thereabouts, but only now have we decided to stock completed stock and big bore blocks on an exchange basis. I really got in high gear when I was teamed up on by Wayne Dempsey and Bruce Anderson and was hinted at Porsche's eventual discontinuation of reman engines by multiple sources.

Up until probably two months ago, I had never had any inquires or calls with regards to failed 3.2 engines from a d-chuck cylinder failure, but that has changed. Regardless, I figured eventually someone would want a big bore kit for this engine as we can increase the bore significantly to make a 3.2 into a 3.6.

Where our Nickies solution differs from a traditional steel sleeve (like Autofarm) is that we keep Porsche's original design more or less intact - open deck, aluminum sleeve, etc. We also maintain the cast in trusses on the crankcase side of the cylinder sleeves to provide added support to our sleeve whent he piston is travelling at BDC. For any increase in bore size, we proportionally increase the wall thickness of the sleeve to maintain the same thickness as the original cylinder would have had. The only difference here is that our alloy is significantly more strong and ductile than the original alloy. We use our proprietary alloy that was developed for our aircooled cylinders which is significantly stronger, more thermally conductive, and has greater ductility than the original casting alloy used. We use a nikasil process on the bores, similar to what Autofarm does on their ductile iron sleeves.

To keep things simple, we digitized the original piston crown and have JE make a piston sharing the same design, on their forged side relief blanks, allowing for a much stronger and even lighter piston than the factory cast ones. Our cylinder alloy also best suits the expansion rates of the JE Piston, just as the original cast pistons were properly matched to the original block and sleeve alloy.

Similarly, we've been addressing individual engine components as needed, such as making replacement connecting rods and more recently, developing a much needed update for the early IMS. Other simple, but much needed bolt-ons like a spin on oil filter adapter (to allow use of better, cheaper oil filters) as well as filter relocation kits which allow for external oil coolers for track or extreme climates. We're also trying to get a new low temp thermostat and thermostat housing done, addressing both high oil and coolant temps as well as the oe design where the retaining tabs for the factory thermostat break off. Be sure as Jake finds other areas that could use improvement, we'll tackle them. I also have a local factory trained technician that is very willing to contribute as well, making suggestions to where improvement is needed and who is also helping me document failures.

I welcome ideas and suggestions and even would like to hear from you if you have a failure so we can document it. The best way to make improvements is through analyzing failures. Honestly, I think the 986 and 996 engine can be make robust enough to outlive it's aircooled predecessors.

Although in it's early stages, I'm sure the aftermarket for the Boxster and later water-cooled Porsches will be just as big if not bigger than that of the aircooled ones.

Come visit us at the Ventura German Autofest in September!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

Last edited by cnavarro; 08-27-2008 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 04:30 PM   #27
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Welcome to the forums Charles. Thank you for your innovation. I look forward to seeing new performanceproducts for the Boxster.
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Old 08-27-2008, 04:36 PM   #28
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I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:26 PM   #29
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This is a wonderful thread. I will inevitably be a Raby customer.

Now what can I sell on eBay to get some cash together?
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Old 08-27-2008, 07:42 PM   #30
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Charles, thanks for joining us too. Very excited about your progress.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcutter
I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.
It was really nice talking to you about power potential and reliability upgrades...

Time will tell exactly what we can do with the 3.2>>3.6 internal work for sure.. It seems that this upgrade is highly sought after and is gaining much more attention than we initially had expected.

We are realigning the testing schedule to favor this conversion and the 2.9 built from the 2.5/2.7 engines more than anything else.... We expect to make some very big power from these two combinations, compared to their base engines.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:30 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dmcutter
I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.
Cost comparable to transplanting a stock 3.6 into what model year of car? Depending on the DME compatibility (model year of car and engine), there can be a significant difference in engine transplant costs.

Again, what is done to improve the IMS?
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:59 AM   #33
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How is engine management going to be handled? What software is going to be used to reflash and will it be able to be custom tuned or is it going to be an off the shelf tune for each engine combo?
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:20 AM   #34
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My car is an '04 S. He was talking about the capabilites of the Motronic so I guess engine management will be handled by remapping the exisitng system. Hey, I'm just a civil engineer-all the things I deal with are supposed to be standing still. I have to assume that the guys doing the development work are capable of handling the details.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:30 AM   #35
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My car is an '04 S. He was talking about the capabilites of the Motronic so I guess engine management will be handled by remapping the exisitng system. Hey, I'm just a civil engineer-all the things I deal with are supposed to be standing still. I have to assume that the guys doing the development work are capable of handling the details.
Motronic is a completely independent engine management computer, eliminating the stock DME.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:59 AM   #36
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Sorry, my bad. I'm obviously not educated on all the details of an engine swap or rebuild. I won't even pretend to be on the same level as most of the contributors to this thread. That's why I posed the question about NOS in the other thread-I wanted to know why it could or couldn't be done.

My perspective is that the car is beautiful in what I feel to be a classic, timeless way, and it is an awesome handler. The engine appears to be the weak link. If I can find a way to make the engine more powerful and longer lasting, it would be worthwhile to do it to ensure years and years of driving pleasure.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:08 AM   #37
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The IMS will be seeing our upgrades with this engine, just like the earlier engines will. I'll let Charles address the specifics since he has headed up that development with the bearing and retainer enhancements.

Engine management for this mod is something that is not yet defined as our other upgrades to the earlier engines can be fulfilled with a re-flash and some manipulation of the stock ECU.

With the 3.2 we'll have to see exactly what occurs.. We believe that the stock DME can be utilized to attain serious power levels, but as of yet we don't exactly know at what level.

We are trying to do as much as possible and still retain the DME because it controls so many aspects of the car. Currently we **believe** that the 3.2>3.6 mods will be capable with the stock unit with some work and maybe just an injector upgrade. Some say it won't but others have experience that it will, the only way to know is to test it out in the lab.

Only time will tell, as we stated the earlier engines have been our main subject thus far with the Boxster engine development program. All of this work requires a bit of evolution to perfect and fully understand, even the use of advanced engine design software and modeling cannot make up for practical application and actual experience.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:47 AM   #38
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Motronic is a completely independent engine management computer, eliminating the stock DME.
Motronic is Bosche's engine management software brand. It is used in all Boxster DME. Depending upon model and year, you either have Motronic 5.2, Motronic 7.2 or Motronic 7.8. The file sizes for ver. 5.2 is 16k while ver. 7X file sizes are 512k, allowing for greater programming and greater dynamic response.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:56 AM   #39
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Motronic is Bosche's engine management software brand. It is used in all Boxster DME. Depending upon model and year, you either have Motronic 5.2, Motronic 7.2 or Motronic 7.8. The file sizes for ver. 5.2 is 16k while ver. 7X file sizes are 512k, allowing for greater programming and greater dynamic response.
Brain fart, I was thinking Motec.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:28 AM   #40
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This thread is one that has significant value to a good many of us. I for one would like to see it stickied.
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