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Old 05-14-2019, 06:40 PM   #161
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LOL... Capricorn One . . . the movie that put the conspiracy freaks nuts in a knot. And it has OJ after he was a star running back but before he was a murderer.

PS it was JAMES Brolin, Josh'e Dad and hubby to 'Babs' Streisand
Thanks. Never saw it.

Just saw the trailer on YouTube. LOL May have to watch it one day.

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Old 05-14-2019, 06:45 PM   #162
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WTFT
(what's Trump's fault today?)
He actually had a moment of truth today!

When asked if he's sending troops to Iran, he said "...we didn't plan for that."

I believe him. Planning isn't his forte.

If a blind squirrel can find a nut sometimes, Rump can tell the truth sometimes too!

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Old 05-15-2019, 03:36 AM   #163
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LOL... Capricorn One . . . the movie that put the conspiracy freaks nuts in a knot. And it has OJ after he was a star running back but before he was a murderer.

PS it was JAMES Brolin, Josh'e Dad and hubby to 'Babs' Streisand
Riiiiiiight! I don't know how I missed that.

Watched it, again, last week.

Killer conclusion.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:15 AM   #164
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They are illegal when they don't seek that shelter at the first country they pass through. So, enough of that BS. Those that get in line... the proper channels... I'm good with that. Unfettered, dig under/climb over that border? Yeah, **************** that.

Yes, I'm the one with the problem. The problem is I'm tired of paying for their ****************, and I'm not alone in that regards. Trump's approval rating is incredible...
a few points...

You aren't "paying for the undocumented" if you don't actually pay any federal income tax. Unless a family of four earn more than $75k they pay no federal income tax. Last I checked only two hardliner states on immigration had household income averaging above $75k. (Wyoming and Idaho if memory serves).
Sure the undocumented consume healthcare, send their kids to public schools and SOME receive public assistance (mostly in sanctuary cities that do well from high income earners). But show me a single wave of European and Eastern European immigrants who never went to a hospital or had kids in school on dirt poor wages. And workers get hurt on the job and need to go to a clinic what's new about that in our history from the industrial revolution onwards? But now it's a problem when it wasn't before? Actually it was a problem before.. you had anti immigration blowhard politicians stirring nativist resentment against the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the "Chinamen", etc. and now it's the Mexican and other Latin Americans turn. Except this time we actually need an immigrant labor force like never before. The current American labor force Participation rate sits at an alarmingly low 62%. Near 40% of this entire country do not work for a living. Then they wonder why we're stuck at 2-3% GDP growth. Can't grow an economy 5 and 6% like in the Bill Clinton 1990's if you don't have enough freaking workers!!

Back to this tax burden you complain about from the undocumented. What exactly do you think happens with the fruits of undocumented labor? It is flipped for "billions and billions" (as professor Trump likes to say) in profits by their employers, mostly in agriculture. Those low wages (for high levels of productivity) is what allows millions of small and medium sized businesses to get to and expand profit margins which they then pay taxes on! Win Win?? Yes! What does the undocumented get for being a block in the creation or successful business? 401K? Health insurance benefit? Paid paternity leave? Vison and dental plan? Carried interest/deferred compensation? Oh yeah that's right he's undocumented... his reward is that his boss won't call ICE if he asks for a 50 cents raise.

The question should be how much more tax you'd be paying if our entire manual labor force up and quit depriving millions of small and medium sized farmers from earning enough to even pay federal income tax. And by the way it's these farmers in these predominantly Republican states that fight adoption of an e-verify mandate in their states. It takes DHS less than a week to verify whether an undocumented worker's papers are bogus or not. But the Republican Congresspersons want nothing to do with any e-verify because these small population states would have no way of replacing that many workers who actually show up every day without a huge increase to their costs. And with Trump's trade war costing the farmers $20 billion in short term agriculture bailouts and billions more in actual lost revenue the last thing they need is to lose their reliable and 100% illegal workforce.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:13 AM   #165
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a few points...



You aren't "paying for the undocumented" if you don't actually pay any federal income tax. Unless a family of four earn more than $75k they pay no federal income tax. Last I checked only two hardliner states on immigration had household income averaging above $75k. (Wyoming and Idaho if memory serves).

Sure the undocumented consume healthcare, send their kids to public schools and SOME receive public assistance (mostly in sanctuary cities that do well from high income earners). But show me a single wave of European and Eastern European immigrants who never went to a hospital or had kids in school on dirt poor wages. And workers get hurt on the job and need to go to a clinic what's new about that in our history from the industrial revolution onwards? But now it's a problem when it wasn't before? Actually it was a problem before.. you had anti immigration blowhard politicians stirring nativist resentment against the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the "Chinamen", etc. and now it's the Mexican and other Latin Americans turn. Except this time we actually need an immigrant labor force like never before. The current American labor force Participation rate sits at an alarmingly low 62%. Near 40% of this entire country do not work for a living. Then they wonder why we're stuck at 2-3% GDP growth. Can't grow an economy 5 and 6% like in the Bill Clinton 1990's if you don't have enough freaking workers!!



Back to this tax burden you complain about from the undocumented. What exactly do you think happens with the fruits of undocumented labor? It is flipped for "billions and billions" (as professor Trump likes to say) in profits by their employers, mostly in agriculture. Those low wages (for high levels of productivity) is what allows millions of small and medium sized businesses to get to and expand profit margins which they then pay taxes on! Win Win?? Yes! What does the undocumented get for being a block in the creation or successful business? 401K? Health insurance benefit? Paid paternity leave? Vison and dental plan? Carried interest/deferred compensation? Oh yeah that's right he's undocumented... his reward is that his boss won't call ICE if he asks for a 50 cents raise.



The question should be how much more tax you'd be paying if our entire manual labor force up and quit depriving millions of small and medium sized farmers from earning enough to even pay federal income tax. And by the way it's these farmers in these predominantly Republican states that fight adoption of an e-verify mandate in their states. It takes DHS less than a week to verify whether an undocumented worker's papers are bogus or not. But the Republican Congresspersons want nothing to do with any e-verify because these small population states would have no way of replacing that many workers who actually show up every day without a huge increase to their costs. And with Trump's trade war costing the farmers $20 billion in short term agriculture bailouts and billions more in actual lost revenue the last thing they need is to lose their reliable and 100% illegal workforce.
We're not helping the situation with hyperbole from both sides. Perfectlap, you make many good points, but you project them across too broad of an expanse. (But you're much closer to reality than the fear- mongering that comes from "my side")

Here's the deal:
As long as legality remains so difficult to attain, we will have illegal immigration. Who can blame them?
As long as there are people willing to hire undocumented workers (objecting to e-verify) we will have low- wage, undocumented workers.
As long as there are central- and- south American illegal immigrants moving 4 families and 11 cars into a single- family home, who don't teach their children why it was so important for them to come to the U.S. in the first place, and who skirt the system and take advantage of the social programs the rest pay for.... yes, there will be animosity.

There needs to be a solution that includes easier access to legal status. There needs to be mandatory e-verify in every work place. This in turn means higher wages for those immigrants, and more access to social programs. It also will allow them to actually PAY-IN to the system, and get something back out of it later.
Get them out of the shadows where they can enjoy the full American dream they came here for. End the resentment on both sides by embracing their new country with love that demonstrates the reasons they came here. End the resentment from the right by letting these immigrants make a decent wage, regulated (and taxed) the same way the rest of the country is.

Our inability or unwillingness to enact reasonable immigration policies has created a caste system every bit as disgusting as those of middle-age Europe. Those immigrants who hide in the shadows and "steal" from our pockets are lower-class citizens in every sense but one: their innate rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They have those rights because they're human; but we aren't letting them exercise them here.

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Old 05-23-2019, 02:19 PM   #166
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We're not helping the situation with hyperbole from both sides. Perfectlap, you make many good points, but you project them across too broad of an expanse. (But you're much closer to reality than the fear- mongering that comes from "my side")

Here's the deal:
As long as legality remains so difficult to attain, we will have illegal immigration. Who can blame them?
As long as there are people willing to hire undocumented workers (objecting to e-verify) we will have low- wage, undocumented workers.
As long as there are central- and- south American illegal immigrants moving 4 families and 11 cars into a single- family home, who don't teach their children why it was so important for them to come to the U.S. in the first place, and who skirt the system and take advantage of the social programs the rest pay for.... yes, there will be animosity.

There needs to be a solution that includes easier access to legal status. There needs to be mandatory e-verify in every work place. This in turn means higher wages for those immigrants, and more access to social programs. It also will allow them to actually PAY-IN to the system, and get something back out of it later.
Get them out of the shadows where they can enjoy the full American dream they came here for. End the resentment on both sides by embracing their new country with love that demonstrates the reasons they came here. End the resentment from the right by letting these immigrants make a decent wage, regulated (and taxed) the same way the rest of the country is.

Our inability or unwillingness to enact reasonable immigration policies has created a caste system every bit as disgusting as those of middle-age Europe. Those immigrants who hide in the shadows and "steal" from our pockets are lower-class citizens in every sense but one: their innate rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They have those rights because they're human; but we aren't letting them exercise them here.

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Somebody smack me, because I agree with 99% of what you just said!!

I do not agree that resentment from the right will end when immigrants make a decent wage and pay taxes. They'll resent them for "taking their jobs." They already have things to say about Indians, Asians, Jews, Blacks.

Besides, a good portion of undocumented workers are using fake SSNs so they are not only paying taxes already, but they're also contributing to our Social Security and will never recoup the benefits.

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Old 05-23-2019, 03:02 PM   #167
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I do not agree that resentment from the right will end when immigrants make a decent wage and pay taxes. They'll resent them for "taking their jobs." They already have things to say about Indians, Asians, Jews, Blacks.

Besides, a good portion of undocumented workers are using fake SSNs so they are not only paying taxes already, but they're also contributing to our Social Security and will never recoup the benefits.
Don't conflate the "right" with the "alt-right". That would be equivalent to me assuming that all left-of-center thinkers agree with antifa, or Bernie Sanders.

Specifically: the right doesn't have ANYTHING injurious to say against ANY of the groups you mentioned, or any others. Yes, some people do, and they claim to be part of the "right", but most of us despise their way of thinking. Traditionally, most anti-semitic rhetoric is associated with those on the left, not on the right. But for me to suggest that you don't like Jews because you're on the left would be equally offensive as your own preposterous claim of the reverse.

Let's not forget that one of the very basic values of conservativism is that we earn our way. We have the utmost respect for those who beat the odds by working hard.

I agree that a large portion of these workers (I don't think it's a majority) are using fake social security numbers. But let's not forget that, as pointed out below, it's not likely that they're paying any taxes because they're not earning enough. Regardless: wouldn't it be preferable to help them be here legally, so they could take advantage of their dream? Let's not ignore the fact that the LOUDEST voices in the anti- illegal- immigration conversation are from LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Those who are here legally are, by far, the most resentful of those who are not. That should tell us something.



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Old 05-23-2019, 03:17 PM   #168
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I do not agree that resentment from the right will end when immigrants make a decent wage and pay taxes. They'll resent them for "taking their jobs." They already have things to say about Indians, Asians, Jews, Blacks.
Kind of a one dimensional perspective. Geez!
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:42 PM   #169
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Piper... how much should I PayPal you for that 1% slap?

Hopefully not a hugely amount.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:28 PM   #170
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Don't conflate the "right" with the "alt-right". That would be equivalent to me assuming that all left-of-center thinkers agree with antifa, or Bernie Sanders.

Specifically: the right doesn't have ANYTHING injurious to say against ANY of the groups you mentioned, or any others. Yes, some people do, and they claim to be part of the "right", but most of us despise their way of thinking. Traditionally, most anti-semitic rhetoric is associated with those on the left, not on the right. But for me to suggest that you don't like Jews because you're on the left would be equally offensive as your own preposterous claim of the reverse.

Let's not forget that one of the very basic values of conservativism is that we earn our way. We have the utmost respect for those who beat the odds by working hard.

I agree that a large portion of these workers (I don't think it's a majority) are using fake social security numbers. But let's not forget that, as pointed out below, it's not likely that they're paying any taxes because they're not earning enough. Regardless: wouldn't it be preferable to help them be here legally, so they could take advantage of their dream? Let's not ignore the fact that the LOUDEST voices in the anti- illegal- immigration conversation are from LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Those who are here legally are, by far, the most resentful of those who are not. That should tell us something.



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Your 'fact' that legal immigrants are the loudest voices against illegal immigrants is blatantly false. Unless you're talking about 2nd+ generations after, which would be true by default cause we're all immigrants or descendants of. (Unless you're Native American) I am actually a 1st gen immigrant, we came here legally. But why doesn't anyone care about illegal immigration from the North? HMM???

"Jews will not replace us", "blood and soil" Those statements didn't come from Lefties. I've never heard of anyone on the left being against Jews. Maybe there are some, but to say that it's mostly from the left is another bogus comment on your part. Look at the make-up of the Republican party Vs the Democratic party. Which party has more diverse members? And how did they get there? They were VOTED in. I'm sure there are many Black and Jew Republicans, even foreign, but why aren't they getting elected? Could it be that conservative voters are becoming more and more anti-Black, Jew, Asian, Etc? I'm not saying YOU are, but just look around.

I believe that you may be an old-school conservative that holds such values, but you've been left behind by the rest of your group. Look who they support: A guy who inherited everything he has, went bankrupt 7 times and no American bank would lend to him. Let alone his moral bankruptcies, which is a topic for another conversation. They supported another rich little brat who couldn't find oil in Texas, and every piece of gold he touched turned to stone. Someone had to go behind him and clean everything up, including our country and our economy.

If conservatives 'had the utmost respect for those who've beaten the odds by working hard', they'd be putting Obama's face on Mt. Rushmore. Or Bill Clinton, for that matter. That may have been the case at one time, but there's no evidence of it anymore.

And why is it that when 'conservatives' are in control, 'Deficits don't matter', but when the're not, they're deficit hawks? No conservative ever said ******************** about deficits when Dubya was in office, nor are they saying now with Cheeto Bone-Spurs.

Show me a prominent conservative who holds to your values, please. George HW Bush and John McCain come to mind, but I think they took true conservatism to the grave with them.

If the right doesn't share the alt-right's way of thinking, why aren't we hearing about it? Where's Fox News? Why didn't they say anything when Rump talked about people from shi*thole counties? Or called for a Muslim ban? And I can tell you stories of an acquaintance in Indianapolis who is a foreign DOCTOR, but has people telling her that they want to be seen by an American. I can provide you tons of examples anti-immigrant, anti-black, Jew, etc. conservatives.

Like I said, you may be a true, old-school conservative, and I may even share some of your same values, but conservatives ain't what they used to be.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:36 PM   #171
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Your 'fact' that legal immigrants are the loudest voices against illegal immigrants is blatantly false. Unless you're talking about 2nd+ generations after, which would be true by default cause we're all immigrants or descendants of. (Unless you're Native American) I am actually a 1st gen immigrant, we came here legally. But why doesn't anyone care about illegal immigration from the North? HMM???



"Jews will not replace us", "blood and soil" Those statements didn't come from Lefties. I've never heard of anyone on the left being against Jews. Maybe there are some, but to say that it's mostly from the left is another bogus comment on your part. Look at the make-up of the Republican party Vs the Democratic party. Which party has more diverse members? And how did they get there? They were VOTED in. I'm sure there are many Black and Jew Republicans, even foreign, but why aren't they getting elected? Could it be that conservative voters are becoming more and more anti-Black, Jew, Asian, Etc? I'm not saying YOU are, but just look around.



I believe that you may be an old-school conservative that holds such values, but you've been left behind by the rest of your group. Look who they support: A guy who inherited everything he has, went bankrupt 7 times and no American bank would lend to him. Let alone his moral bankruptcies, which is a topic for another conversation. They supported another rich little brat who couldn't find oil in Texas, and every piece of gold he touched turned to stone. Someone had to go behind him and clean everything up, including our country and our economy.



If conservatives 'had the utmost respect for those who've beaten the odds by working hard', they'd be putting Obama's face on Mt. Rushmore. Or Bill Clinton, for that matter. That may have been the case at one time, but there's no evidence of it anymore.



And why is it that when 'conservatives' are in control, 'Deficits don't matter', but when the're not, they're deficit hawks? No conservative ever said ******************** about deficits when Dubya was in office, nor are they saying now with Cheeto Bone-Spurs.



Show me a prominent conservative who holds to your values, please. George HW Bush and John McCain come to mind, but I think they took true conservatism to the grave with them.



If the right doesn't share the alt-right's way of thinking, why aren't we hearing about it? Where's Fox News? Why didn't they say anything when Rump talked about people from shi*thole counties? Or called for a Muslim ban? And I can tell you stories of an acquaintance in Indianapolis who is a foreign DOCTOR, but has people telling her that they want to be seen by an American. I can provide you tons of examples anti-immigrant, anti-black, Jew, etc. conservatives.



Like I said, you may be a true, old-school conservative, and I may even share some of your same values, but conservatives ain't what they used to be.
I left this thread once because of your ignorant and inflammatory "hate-speech" (to use a vernacular you're familiar with), but I thought since we'd found some common ground you'd be a little less disgusting.
That's what I get for thinking the best of someone.

Guess I'm out again.

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Old 05-23-2019, 04:38 PM   #172
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Kind of a one dimensional perspective. Geez!
Maybe so, I'm only calling it as I see it.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:51 PM   #173
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...your ignorant and inflammatory "hate-speech"... but I thought since we'd found some common ground you'd be a little less disgusting...

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Inflamitory hate speech? Seriously? Tell me what part, please.

I think I was respectful towards you. I never once insulted you. The worst thing I could have said was call your two comments "blatantly false" and "bogus". But that was after you called mine preposterous. Did that offend you? Sorry.

But I hold firm on my comments and examples.

Show me where I'm wrong without getting personal. I welcome some enlightenment and I welcome a different opinion.

I don't think you can dispute them. Please do so, if you can.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:57 PM   #174
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Piper... how much should I PayPal you for that 1% slap?

Hopefully not a hugely amount.
I'm turning the other cheek on that one!
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:36 PM   #175
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Besides, a good portion of undocumented workers are using fake SSNs so they are not only paying taxes already, but they're also contributing to our Social Security and will never recoup the benefits.
There's $20 billion in taxes collected from undocumented workers in those coffers. Which Treasury dips into each time they need those intragovermental transfers when we bump the debt ceiling. At any rate the lowest paid workers, documented or not, purpose in our economy is NOT to pay taxes but to provide productivity for wealthier American business owners to build profits from. As their businesses become more successful they start paying higher wages which attract native born American workers. But a business needs to crawl before it can run.

So why don't we just fix the immigration system if its plainly obvious that we need a large manual labor force in an expansionary economy? simple. The GOP know full well that most of these immigrants will lean Democrat 3 to 1. George W. Bush was doing good work at pulling more of the Hispanic workers to the Republican party capturing near 45% of their vote. But then he made good on his common sense proposal to provide a pathway to citizenship and his party said "No way Jose"... his own party shot down his immigration reform bill. George W. Bush realistic pragmatism went out the window and was replaced by Trumpy demagoguery. "There's no more room people. sorry have to close the door " says professor Trump while he gets busted red handed hiring dozens of central American undocumented workers at his cheesy golf clubs. And nevemind that his own mother came to America with no education, no money, no skills, (what he now calls a meritless immigrant) and she only gained entry because of the very familial chain migration he now wants to end. Trump's mother went from living in a house/hut with a grass roof (not dissimilar to the "****************hole countries") to being a cleaning lady in a rich home to giving birth to a future President. And Trumps paternal grandfather? Welcomed into the country as a refugee who was deported from his home country for dodging the draft...

if not for chain migration and asylum for refugees we never would have had a Trump. Think of the irony of that for a second...
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Old 05-24-2019, 02:59 AM   #176
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There's $20 billion in taxes collected from undocumented workers in those coffers. Which Treasury dips into each time they need those intragovermental transfers when we bump the debt ceiling. At any rate the lowest paid workers, documented or not, purpose in our economy is NOT to pay taxes but to provide productivity for wealthier American business owners to build profits from. As their businesses become more successful they start paying higher wages which attract native born American workers. But a business needs to crawl before it can run.

So why don't we just fix the immigration system if its plainly obvious that we need a large manual labor force in an expansionary economy? simple. The GOP know full well that most of these immigrants will lean Democrat 3 to 1. George W. Bush was doing good work at pulling more of the Hispanic workers to the Republican party capturing near 45% of their vote. But then he made good on his common sense proposal to provide a pathway to citizenship and his party said "No way Jose"... his own party shot down his immigration reform bill. George W. Bush realistic pragmatism went out the window and was replaced by Trumpy demagoguery. "There's no more room people. sorry have to close the door " says professor Trump while he gets busted red handed hiring dozens of central American undocumented workers at his cheesy golf clubs. And nevemind that his own mother came to America with no education, no money, no skills, (what he now calls a meritless immigrant) and she only gained entry because of the very familial chain migration he now wants to end. Trump's mother went from living in a house/hut with a grass roof (not dissimilar to the "****************hole countries") to being a cleaning lady in a rich home to giving birth to a future President. And Trumps paternal grandfather? Welcomed into the country as a refugee who was deported from his home country for dodging the draft...

if not for chain migration and asylum for refugees we never would have had a Trump. Think of the irony of that for a second...
Agreed. Not to mention Rump's in-laws who recently 'chain-migrated' here. I also think Rump should have to take the same civics test Jared proposed for immigrants.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:15 PM   #177
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Hollar when someone changes another's mind politically.......................
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:59 AM   #178
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Hollar when someone changes another's mind politically.......................
the fence sitters who switch from Democrat to Republican or vice versa, from one election to the very next, they never holler. They take in everything and decide elections. As time moves on these voters become increasingly younger and read "the comments" for political perspectives rather than watching TV or reading print journalism. These online forums are the way people are getting exposure to supporters of one party or another. If your party largely relies on older voters with aversion to political content online then it's already on the back foot in a game changing manner. Most national or statewide elections are decided by a mere 2-3% of the vote. if a party's supporters aren't using social media and blogs (in a manner that reflects well on the party) they are going to be on the wrong side of these close elections. the diehards will never change their minds you are 100% correct...but it's how the undecideds view the diehards that has consequence. if they're turned off by racism, religious bigotry, homophobia, xenophobia, extremism, fascism...all the things centrist now deplore then they'll swing the other way. Candidates that play only to their base are digging their own graves in the social media era.
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:25 PM   #179
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another reason you can never believe Trump is telling you the truth or the whole truth on the trade war

CNBC
https://youtu.be/VG-aEwY0R50
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IMS#1 REPLACED: April 2010 - NEW JERSEY -- LNE DUAL ROW
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:33 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectlap View Post
another reason you can never believe Trump is telling you the truth or the whole truth on the trade war

CNBC
https://youtu.be/VG-aEwY0R50
To add to that: S&S Worldwide, the largest US manufacturer of roller coasters, is currently in Logan, Utah. One of their biggest clients is China. They said that due to tariffs, they now have to move production to China.

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