As close as it gets: IMS Save!

[Series9]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

... the engine isn't qualified for an LN retrofit.

Actually, it is.

See here from the LN website:

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Series9

Actually, it is.

See here from the LN website:

Yes, thats a Preferred Installer, not a Certified Installer. Huge difference between the two. Also, that statement also means that its not fully qualified, because it doesn't qualify for a warranty.

From this side of the fence the primary concern is the effectiveness and long term service of the retrofitted bearing. Constantly these bearings are being swapped from engines that were found to be previously failing. Shops are not carrying out pre- inspections before retrofits are done. I find issues with engines and DQ those engines routinely, these things can be anything from a sump full of IMS failure debris, to a chunk of a timing chain roller, of a handful of timing chain wear rail material. At that point, we stop and go into a reactive mode. Thats the other part of the procedure I developed, and every engine is presumed guilty until proven innocent. When I instruct classes all across N. America I ask on the beginning of day #2, who carries out a pre- qualification before carrying out an IMS Retrofit. All year long, I have had TWO people out of about 400 raise their hands. Put clearly- an IMS Procedure isn't completed, as directed, without the engine being pre- qualified first.

Yes, it may be the customer's decision, because it's his car. You can trust that even if that customer makes the decision to take the risk, and the engine experiences a failure that he still won't be happy. What is "ok" today and seemingly going to save him money, is not going to be okay if things don't work out.

As long as he doesn't make phone calls this way, and he is responsible for his own decisions and risks, all is well for everyone except for him.

When I act as the customer's advisor I treat the car like it was my own. That means that at times I have disassembled a complete engine just to clean debris from it when carrying out a retrofit and caught one at mid failure, like this one. It didn't cost him anything, because I knew it would cost me everything if it failed. All he did was sign on the dotted line saying he had ben informed and that he granted us permission to strip the whole thing. Did I make any money? No. Did I lose any money? Yes. Did I retain a reputation and keep my character? Yes. Thats all that matters here.

If the proper steps are carried out after a failure of this level, the engine at least stands
a chance to survive. These steps are extensive and time consuming. If those things are not done, it doesn't stand a chance at living a full life.

The fine line between being a "Hero" or a "Zero" is so faint that its invisible. One second is all that separates the two.

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others, and some of us have had IMS Retrofit bearings fail, and others haven't. IMSR #415 was finished here yesterday, and I post inspect it on Monday, just like I pre- inspected it last Monday.

[BruceH]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others........

So very true

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

I hear you brother! I am the guy who has always said that swapping in a replacement or eBay engine is by far the most cost effective solution - these cars are simply not worth the rebuild in most cases.

But thinking that this engine can simply and cheaply be repaired is a recipe for failure. The damage has already done to all of the friction surfaces and 500 mile oil change intervals after the fact won't fix it.

The engine can certainly "pull through" and run for awhile longer if that is all the owner is looking for, but eventually it will likely suffer a major failure due to the damage that wasn't repaired. Or worse, the "just-get-it-running-again" car gets sold and the next owner is stuck with an engine that is living on borrowed time.

[Series9]

The customer has a receipt for the work that says "NO WARRANTY DUE TO DEBRIS FOUND FROM A FAILING BEARING".

This is a case of doing the best we could given the customer's financial parameters. It was either try to save it or part out the car. The customer was fully informed when he made the decision to proceed.

I feel good about the work we did and I stand by our decisions. I run an honest shop that respects my customers.

If he sells the car and presents the paperwork for the bearing to a prospective buyer, the buyer will see documentation of what happened.




AND, I've been pre qualifying cars since before the LN "code of conduct" even existed. This car passed visual inspection of the pan and filter, and passed the cam timing check with the laptop before I started work.




I'm thinking I remember now why I don't post here very much......

[Jake Raby]

Maybe all of that is good enough, and maybe there will be a positive outcome.

To clarify, Series9 is neither a Preferred Installer of IMS Retrofit components, or a Certified Installer of the IMS Solution.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Series9

The customer has a receipt for the work that says "NO WARRANTY DUE TO DEBRIS FOUND FROM A FAILING BEARING".

This is a case of doing the best we could given the customer's financial parameters. It was either try to save it or part out the car. The customer was fully informed when he made the decision to proceed.

I feel good about the work we did and I stand by our decisions. I run an honest shop that respects my customers.

If he sells the car and presents the paperwork for the bearing to a prospective buyer, the buyer will see documentation of what happened.




AND, I've been pre qualifying cars since before the LN "code of conduct" even existed. This car passed visual inspection of the pan and filter, and passed the cam timing check with the laptop before I started work.

I'm thinking I remember now why I don't post here very much......

Thinking that's a very fair way to do it as some clients don't have the financial resources to do it up 'the official way'. My concern - would it not also make sense to stamp it right on the car somehow? Someone could get this done and then quickly flip the car. If they don't present the paperwork, how would the new buyer know? Or am I missing something?

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

The engine can certainly "pull through" and run for awhile longer if that is all the owner is looking for, but eventually it will likely suffer a major failure due to the damage that wasn't repaired. Or worse, the "just-get-it-running-again" car gets sold and the next owner is stuck with an engine that is living on borrowed time.

There ought to be a watch list of cars that had the IMS swap after failure had begun without a full tear down. I'm guessing if the pan is cleaned, and oil changed before a PPI, the prospective buyer will have no idea that the engine has little radioactive bits deep inside. Nor would the seller disclose this as it would require a steep reduction in the ask. So for the lurkers, be very wary of a car with a recent IMS swap or one with little mileage since the swap. Maybe owners should ask for photos of the bearing from their mechanic at the moment of initial extraction. This can be put in the service records come time to sell the car. Sure this photo evidence can be staged but thats pretty shady stuff that I doubt a shop with a long and well known history would risk for no real profit. On second thought maybe a short video burned to DVD would be better. After all this a $10k plus concern that could give a potential buyer some peace of mind. The shop could charge accordingly.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

There ought to be a watch list of cars that had the IMS swap after failure had begun without a full tear down. I'm guessing if the pan is cleaned, and oil changed before a PPI, the prospective buyer will have no idea that the engine has little radioactive bits deep inside. Nor would the seller disclose this as it would require a steep reduction in the ask. So for the lurkers, be very wary of a car with a recent IMS swap or one with little mileage since the swap. Maybe owners should ask for photos of the bearing from their mechanic at the moment of initial extraction. This can be put in the service records come time to sell the car. Sure this photo evidence can be staged but thats pretty shady stuff that I doubt a shop with a long and well known history would risk for no real profit. On second thought maybe a short video burned to DVD would be better. After all this a $10k plus concern that could give a potential buyer some peace of mind. The shop could charge accordingly.

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

At the end of the day, from the developer's stand point, any engine that has a bearing failing shouldn't be retrofitted.

If any retrofit bearing fails, no matter if the customer was told or not, it still tarnishes the retrofit reputation. It also has a lot to do with the way the customer is "told" about what **may** happen in the future. If I explain these things to someone, they certainly won't move forward. No unicorns or rainbows here.

If they can't afford to fix it the right way today, before it fails, they damn sure won't be able to afford to repair it after it fails. Then they'll want someone else higher up in the food chain to "stand behind their product". That may be the shop that installed the retrofit bearing, or it may be the retrofit component manufacturer.

Then, they'll be told "NO" and they'll get pissy, then they'll decide to scream about it on a forum... Meanwhile, no one knows the whole backstory.

In my professional classes, I added two hours of info specifically on the topic of pre- qualification prior to an IMSR.

Thinking that's a very fair way to do it as some clients don't have the financial resources to do it up 'the official way'.

Fair to who? Its not fair to the technology or the developers to put these components in harm's way. The people that lack the "financial resources" are the ones who will expect someone else to pay the bill for them. They scream the loudest and whine hardest.

[Ebell914]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

Jake - my car has a retrofit from the previous owner. Can I contact you with my VIN to see if it was registered?

[cnavarro]

The LN website also goes as far as to state:

3. If the original bearing has failed, a Preferred Installer will NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES perform any IMS procedure.

The problem herein lies that we do not have a clear definition of what is a failed bearing. From the picture that was posted, I would consider that bearing failed, but again, that's my opinion and you know what they say, opinions are like ass*****, everyone has one.

If a procedure that is carried out in less than optimal conditions, yes, there is no warranty, but a spin on oil filter must be employed in addition to more frequent oil changes and dropping of the oil pan at every change.

Someone posting that they have saved a motor with a retrofit procedure without clearly stating the extra lengths required and also clarifying that it is a good chance the engine will still blow up gives people the wrong idea. Most failures of our IMS Retrofit bearings can be tracked back to the original bearing having failed or even having started to fail. Any debris = a good chance the engine will blow up.

One of our competitors throws us under the bus with a video of a failed LN bearing but neglects to point out that the original bearing was cut out of the ims and the engine had already been compromised and that same bearing was removed then reinstalled in another engine before supposedly having failed.

Similarities between these two cases are that posts are made and without all the details, people can take away whatever they want, whether correct or incorrect, as the information shared can and will be taken out of context.

I personally would only do retrofit procedures on healthy engines, that's just me, but I'll be honest that I know that tens of installations are done weekly that, if I were consulted, I would recommend against carrying out.

Only a small percentage of bearings are registered and only one or two were sent in that were failed bearings where the shop still carried out the procedure. I can tell you in every case that the original bearing was failed that I know of, the new bearing failed too.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Ebell914

Jake - my car has a retrofit from the previous owner. Can I contact you with my VIN to see if it was registered?

ONLY if it has a serialized Flat 6 Innovations decal in the door jamb, as installed here at our facility during the installation.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

At the end of the day, from the developer's stand point, any engine that has a bearing failing shouldn't be retrofitted.

If any retrofit bearing fails, no matter if the customer was told or not, it still tarnishes the retrofit reputation. It also has a lot to do with the way the customer is "told" about what **may** happen in the future. If I explain these things to someone, they certainly won't move forward. No unicorns or rainbows here.

If they can't afford to fix it the right way today, before it fails, they damn sure won't be able to afford to repair it after it fails. Then they'll want someone else higher up in the food chain to "stand behind their product". That may be the shop that installed the retrofit bearing, or it may be the retrofit component manufacturer.

Then, they'll be told "NO" and they'll get pissy, then they'll decide to scream about it on a forum... Meanwhile, no one knows the whole backstory.

In my professional classes, I added two hours of info specifically on the topic of pre- qualification prior to an IMSR.



Fair to who? Its not fair to the technology or the developers to put these components in harm's way. The people that lack the "financial resources" are the ones who will expect someone else to pay the bill for them. They scream the loudest and whine hardest.

If the developers are going to sell their product on the open market to whomever, then they give away any rights to it and people are free to do what they wish. Maybe the developers should only provide their product to licensed shops if this is a concern?

[Jake Raby]

If the developers are going to sell their product on the open market to whomever, then they give away any rights to it and people are free to do what they wish.

Which is fine, as long as those individuals assume full responsibility for their judgment calls. Some do. Some don't, and some have been caught in the act.

Maybe the developers should only provide their product to licensed shops if this is a concern?

Which is similar to what the IMS Solution Certified Installer program is based around.

Its tough to moderate these things and if we didn't care, we'd want everyone to install every retrofit possible, engine failing, or not. Thats not the case.

[rp17]

Its pretty clear now he won't be enjoying this Boxster for a long time. Sounds like the owner of the car should try to get his money back. I would call Joe Pesci on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZzAS53gcDg

[Lobo1186]

Originally Posted by rp17

Its pretty clear now he won't be enjoying this Boxster for a long time. Sounds like the owner of the car should try to get his money back. I would call Joe Pesci on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZzAS53gcDg

Great movie! I do not see any reason why the owner won't be enjoying his car. Everyone here is always so worried about one thing or another. It isn't worth all the gray hairs.

[Sanford_yee]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

ONLY if it has a serialized Flat 6 Innovations decal in the door jamb, as installed here at our facility during the installation.

Jake: This doesn't make sense. The only time you have the vin in a database is if you install the bearing and you send it back to yourself? Did I read these posts correctly?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Sanford_yee

Jake: This doesn't make sense. The only time you have the vin in a database is if you install the bearing and you send it back to yourself? Did I read these posts correctly?

No, you are a bit confused. While I am the developer of the process and have done all the test work for the products, we do not manufacture them- thats LN Engineering.

Nothing thats purchased for an IMSR is bought from my company. We do offer IMSR services, and in those cases we do carry the work out here and have our own data base.

My IMSR development work was done for LN Engineering. Thats what my role has been since day #1.

[Ebell914]

OK, that is where I was confused. Perhaps LNE has info on my car as it was not installed by Jake.

Chuck - would I be able to check with you to see if the installer from the PO (Import Performance in Wilmington, NC) ever registered with you?

[Series9]

These are the last comments I will make on this:


My primary reason for starting this thread was to try to keep the IMS failure issue front and center. I've seen quite a few scrapped engines over these failures and want to encourage everyone to address their cars while they have a good bearing, and not a bearing in the condition I found this one.



Saying that the owners of these cars should not have a choice about the repairs because they might try to sell them later without disclosing what was done, is the same as saying that body shops should not be allowed to fix cars after an accident because the owner might not disclose in the future.

The serial number of the bearing and the VIN of the car have been registered with LN. If the engine fails, well, we will have done our best to try to save it. Again, that's the best we could do on this one. Try to remember, this is America. You know, personal freedom and all that jazz.

Jake's statement that I am neither a "Preferred Installer" nor certified in the IMS Solution is correct, but I feel that he put it up to imply that I am somehow unqualified to do either. I was a preferred installer for four years, and decided a few months ago to let my subscription expire because I felt that my advertising dollars would be spent more efficiently locally. I removed myself from the list, not the other way around. As to whether I become an installer of the IMS Solution, I don't know what the future holds, but I'm not ruling it out.

I am, and will continue to be a huge supporter of LN Engineering and their products. I am a dealer for their products and plan to continue in that role.

I apologize for creating an unnecessary ******************** storm here. Running a car shop presents many and varied ethical gray areas. I work hard to stay on the correct side of the fence and will continue to do so.

If you haven't addressed your factory bearing, please do.