did you guys read the $20K showdown in Excellence?

[Perfectlap]

you know while your here I just want to make a general observation about car magazine writers.
Why is it that every write up about a new model or a comparo starts off with some anecdote to draw an analogy to what you are about to write about?
Throw the DRIVERS a bone and just say today we got the car and drove the wheels off it. Tell us things that people not working for a car magazine would never know about. More facts, more references to similar cars and how they stack up and less mumbo jumbo fancy tawk (in jersey accent).


p.s.
pilot2519,
interesting that many 996 owners look down on the Boxster. The Boxster is the roadster of the Porsche brand and the benchmark for the industry, if the 2000 and the BoxsterS were sold at the same price Honda would have something to deal with for sure. I know which I would choose! I think allot of those 996/997 owners who do look down on the "entry level" Porsche (a ridiculous term for many reasons) forget or simply don't know that the '93 Boxster Concept Car was in many ways the precursor to the 996. Europe was driving what would be the successor to the 993, certainly in terms of interior styling and the all important front end exterior look, in the form of the Boxster some three years before the 996 911 was actually sold in the U.S. From the seats forward there wasn't too much surprise of what the 911 would look like when it finally arrived in 1999.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Pilot2519j

Is all in the cachet. The 911 has it and the Boxster does not. Porsche as many have stated will modify the 911 adnaseum till doomsday. No matter how you slice that car it is a VW on steroids. The Ferrari 430 Modena has clocked the 911 countless times and will continue to do so in the racing series televised by Speedvision. The 911 brew is elitest snobs that look down at anything that is not a 911. As a matter of fact they don't even acknowledge you as if the Boxster drivers were some sort of subhuman species. The Boxster is a quantum leap over the 911 Steredzoid. Design wise handling and fun to drive there no car that can top the Boxster. I was very happy and pleased when the Cayman beat the 911 time in N-ring. Oops! Imagine if the Boxster and Cayman had the same engines as the 911, they would from fast to super rediculous fast in a jiffy.

HI,

All of what you say is very true. There is alot of cachet surrounding the 911, but this can also be deceiving. There are several variants to that cachet.

There are those who feel it's cachet stems from it's longevity (and at least through the 993 series, it remained essentially the same car since 1964 (albeit continuously tweaked in order to keep up). As for the 996, it shares much more with the Boxster than it ever did with the 993 or earlier variants.

Then there are those who point to it's racing prowess. Interestingly enough, Porsche has always maintained that the 911 (not including the specific racing variants) was a Rally car rather than a Race car. This makes sense, because Porsche has always restricted it's Motorsports activities to venues where it clearly has advantages over other existing technology, they have rarely gone shoulder-to-shoulder with any other marque. The recent RS Spyder's entry into L2 instead of L1 is a case in point, though the ALMS appeared to be about to clip their wings. They couldn't win in Champ, or F1, so they just decided not to play.

Then there are those who believe such cachet stems from it's economic niche, that only those breathing rarified air can afford one. And so, to do so makes someone special. All this leads to the air of Superiority one sometimes encounters. But, 914 owners have been at the forefront of this Superior bravado for over 30 years, and yet this Porsche/VW always gave the 911 a good run for the money.

Mention it's dated design, or the fact that many more modern cars will outperform it, and these same people will revert to praising it's Classic stature. And that's really what it is now, more of a Classic.

But, this cachet was not the product of some group of Mag writers, rather from it's flock of faithful owners. If the Boxster is ever to achieve such high and long-lived status, IMHO, it will be up to Boxster owners to create it...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[horizontally-opposed]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

you know while your here I just want to make a general observation about car magazine writers.
Why is it that every write up about a new model or a comparo starts off with some anecdote to draw an analogy to what you are about to write about?
Throw the DRIVERS a bone and just say today we got the car and drove the wheels off it. Tell us things that people not working for a car magazine would never know about. More facts, more references to similar cars and how they stack up and less mumbo jumbo fancy tawk (in jersey accent).

Well, thats a VERY general statement...but a grain of truth, too.

There are plenty of writers in this biz who strive to be great writers rather than great reviewers. Too many, in fact. 'Tis nice to be both, but so very few are. And even fewer auto journalists are what I would term "truly great writers." The latter are usually writing books, not car reviews.

That said, a good writer captures the essence of a car. Try the British magazine EVO sometime... I feel they do it better than anyone else -- though each of us have their own dislikes and likes.

pete

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by horizontally-opposed

I think this statement reflects more about you than the magazine. But, at least I know where I'm not welcome.

I'll just have to hope a few of you enjoyed the reading, as it seems some did.

Cheers...

pete

I just got done posting an admonition about personal attacks on this board. Do I need to re-post that for you?

Thanks for the shot, now move on!

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Ronzi

Pete, while I'm just another poor poster on this forum, I for one am overjoyed to know that you read the endless list of opinions and conjectures that appear every day. Or maybe you just read the stuff related to Excellence??? In any event, it's nice to know the grumps and complaints don't just disappear into the internet void. Who knows, maybe some of our opinions even get communicated back to Porsche. Maybe? Huh?
I also have to disagree with Brucelee. I think Excellence is by far the best of the Porsche marque mags I have seen. Certainly much better than the other US and UK competitors.
Accusing Excellence of being a "shill rag" is a little over the top. It's a magazine about Porsche, what would anybody expect? If you want to read a shill rag, pick up a copy of Christophorus some time.

Its an OPINION, consider it as such!

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by super66

pete, I haven't read your magazine but was actually impressed that you were on here as well.....I wouldn't let that opinion make you feel unwelcome....he's kind of the owner, but man oh man I can say we all don't agree with his opinion....on many things.....hopefully you'll stick around and be part of the group in the future

No one asked this dude to leave?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Pilot2519j

Is all in the cachet. The 911 has it and the Boxster does not. Porsche as many have stated will modify the 911 adnaseum till doomsday. No matter how you slice that car it is a VW on steroids. The Ferrari 430 Modena has clocked the 911 countless times and will continue to do so in the racing series televised by Speedvision. The 911 brew is elitest snobs that look down at anything that is not a 911. As a matter of fact they don't even acknowledge you as if the Boxster drivers were some sort of subhuman species. The Boxster is a quantum leap over the 911 Steredzoid. Design wise handling and fun to drive there no car that can top the Boxster. I was very happy and pleased when the Cayman beat the 911 time in N-ring. Oops! Imagine if the Boxster and Cayman had the same engines as the 911, they would from fast to super rediculous fast in a jiffy.

Hey, you are not allowed to express such an opinion, the Excellence folks will come right out and arrest you.

Seriously, I could not agree with you more. It is TONS of fun running your $90K plus sports car hard and wondering when the ass end will be coming around front to meet you!

[super66]

[QUOTE=Brucelee]Hey, you are not allowed to express such an opinion, the Excellence folks will come right out and arrest you.
QUOTE]

so much for no personal attacks

[pecivil]

pete,
excellence is a great mag, and I always enjoy reading it cover to cover. Glad to know you lurk here too. On the article, I DO think the 968 got short shrift. If it had had M030 or coilovers (as you noted in the article) I am sure it would not have been a distant third. Not having an upgraded suspension for it hurt the validity of the compairo.

But hey this is coming from an old BMW guy who can handle the engine being in the front!!

I bet the 968 guys ARE mad at you however. Jarrod's was probably the LAST 968 you will ever get to test.

Write us an article about one of those turboed 968's that come from Powerhaus in AZ. Those are said to be verrrrry nice indeed. You will make amends with the 968 community for sure!

[Ghostrider 310]

I have to say I enjoy reading Excellence magazine too. Just the tidbits I have learned from some of the articles make it more than worth it's subscription price. I enjoyed reading the comparison article. Regarding the 968, I personally thought they ruined the looks, I think the 944 body was a nicer looking package. I never liked the sound of that four or it's lack of power, once wound up though, it was a potent four banger.

[Ronzi]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

HI,

... because Porsche has always restricted it's Motorsports activities to venues where it clearly has advantages over other existing technology, they have rarely gone shoulder-to-shoulder with any other marque. They couldn't win in Champ, or F1, so they just decided not to play.


Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

I guess you are referring to the "unfair advantage" philosophy espoused by Penske and Mark Donohue during the great Penske/Porsche CanAm years. Look at the rules, and the competition, then craft a device that is capable of meeting the first and beating the snot out of the second. Porsche has been good at that, but I think that is to their credit and not a criticism. I would point out, however, that the 917 won LeMans something like eight or nine times, taking on all comers for over a decade.
No question their history in open-wheel racing is less than spectacular. The early F1 cars were initially competitive, but were soon swallowed up by the Cosworth engine and the chassis-of-the-month club of the English car builders. In more recent history the TAG-Porsche and the Porsche Indy car effort both lacked development time and money. I don't think we will see Porsche entering either US open-wheel nor the F1 money-burning machine any time soon.

[Ghostrider 310]

WOW


I thought this thread was interesting till I read the locked threads. Seems a certain resident "Willie Coyote" Super Genius, was dealt a long deserved smackdown. It's rather ironic, at times I truly think a lot could be learned from MIKE, (Mr. I Know Everything), I've even envisioned a day where I might have to eat crow to gain his expertise. Yet his presentation skills and aristocratic style soon blur any pertinent information you might be extracting from his pompous blather. Speaking of pompous blather, I'm sure I won't win a windscreen decal for typing it, but for Brucey to ********************slap Excellence magazine while chairing this BB ... Well.....People in glass houses are not supposed to throw stones. Compared to Excellence magazine this BB might as well be Robert Schuller's Crystall Cathedral..


oh and Happy Motoring dudes!!

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Ronzi

I guess you are referring to the "unfair advantage" philosophy espoused by Penske and Mark Donohue during the great Penske/Porsche CanAm years. Look at the rules, and the competition, then craft a device that is capable of meeting the first and beating the snot out of the second. Porsche has been good at that, but I think that is to their credit and not a criticism. I would point out, however, that the 917 won LeMans something like eight or nine times, taking on all comers for over a decade.
No question their history in open-wheel racing is less than spectacular. The early F1 cars were initially competitive, but were soon swallowed up by the Cosworth engine and the chassis-of-the-month club of the English car builders. In more recent history the TAG-Porsche and the Porsche Indy car effort both lacked development time and money. I don't think we will see Porsche entering either US open-wheel nor the F1 money-burning machine any time soon.

Hi,

I hear what you're saying, good points.

To me though, Porsche has never seemed so dedicated to Racing as it has been to selling to the Privateer. Much of their racing heritage rests on the shoulders of such privateers as Von Trips, Gurney, Adamowicz, Folmer, Penske and the like. Even the RS Spyder was announced as a Privateer offering after Porsche's innuagural year. They seem to lack the dedicated enthusiasm, as a company, Enzo Ferrari, Bruce McLaren, Colin Chapman, John Cooper and such pursued throughout their lives. Just MHO...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

WOW


I thought this thread was interesting till I read the locked threads. Seems a certain resident "Willie Coyote" Super Genius, was dealt a long deserved smackdown. It's rather ironic, at times I truly think a lot could be learned from MIKE, (Mr. I Know Everything), I've even envisioned a day where I might have to eat crow to gain his expertise. Yet his presentation skills and aristocratic style soon blur any pertinent information you might be extracting from his pompous blather. Speaking of pompous blather, I'm sure I won't win a windscreen decal for typing it, but for Brucey to ********************slap Excellence magazine while chairing this BB ... Well.....People in glass houses are not supposed to throw stones. Compared to Excellence magazine this BB might as well be Robert Schuller's Christal cathedral..


oh and Happy Motoring dudes!!

I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion about Excellence magazine.

Having said that, I do and stated it. This was not an personal attack, simply my take on the magazine as a ex-subscriber. See, you have to PAY for the magazine, unlike your time here. So, as an EX-Subscriber, I don't PAY anymore.


Hey, if you don't like this forum, take a hike, I will get by.

So, as I said before, if you keep with the personal attacks, you will be banned.

End of story.

[Brucelee]

BTW- always a big fan of the 968. You have to love the power they got out of that old 4 cylinder motor.

[horizontally-opposed]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion about Excellence magazine.

Having said that, I do and stated it. This was not an personal attack, simply my take on the magazine as a ex-subscriber. See, you have to PAY for the magazine, unlike your time here. So, as an EX-Subscriber, I don't PAY anymore.


Hey, if you don't like this forum, take a hike, I will get by.

So, as I said before, if you keep with the personal attacks, you will be banned.

End of story.

Rich, absolutely you are allowed to have an opinion of the magazine, good or bad. That's what the free exchange of ideas is all about.

That said, I felt your statement was about as blatant and nasty an attack as they come online, personal or no.

Also, while "saddest" and "rag" are certainly subjective evaluations and thus fair game, the term "shill" is an objective label regarding business ethics and personal integrity that I feel is completely unfair given the magazine's reputation for fair and even-handed reviews of all products, from Porsche's own cars and SUVs and Tequipment to aftermarket cars and products. Within the community, it's unmatched and, this side of Consumer Reports, I don't see another candle to blow at.

Thus, I simply balked at your calling the magazine a "shill."

I'm sorry to have lost you as a subscriber, for whatever the reason, but was surprised by your apparent vehemence towards the magazine. I feel like building a good relationship between magazines and web forums can only benefit all of us within the Porsche community. Bridges are a very good thing.

So, on that note, let me apologize for my response to your critique.

Best regards,

pete

[horizontally-opposed]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

BTW- always a big fan of the 968. You have to love the power they got out of that old 4 cylinder motor.

Oh, and I, too, have always been a big fan of 968s, and still am -- partly for the same reason and partly because I've always liked the "other" Porsches quite a bit.

911s are great, but I like the alternative thinking and creativity Weissach engineers seemed to exercise in the other models. It's the 928 that gave us the Weissach axle and the 968 that gave us VarioCam and the 986 that gave us the new face of Porsche for the 21st century...one that was then adapted to the, you guessed it, 911.

pete

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by horizontally-opposed

Rich, absolutely you are allowed to have an opinion of the magazine, good or bad. That's what the free exchange of ideas is all about.

That said, I felt your statement was about as blatant and nasty an attack as they come online, personal or no.

Also, while "saddest" and "rag" are certainly subjective evaluations and thus fair game, the term "shill" is an objective label regarding business ethics and personal integrity that I feel is completely unfair given the magazine's reputation for fair and even-handed reviews of all products, from Porsche's own cars and SUVs and Tequipment to aftermarket cars and products. Within the community, it's unmatched and, this side of Consumer Reports, I don't see another candle to blow at.

Thus, I simply balked at your calling the magazine a "shill."

I'm sorry to have lost you as a subscriber, for whatever the reason, but was surprised by your apparent vehemence towards the magazine. I feel like building a good relationship between magazines and web forums can only benefit all of us within the Porsche community. Bridges are a very good thing.

So, on that note, let me apologize for my response to your critique.

Best regards,

pete

Nicely done and I appreciate it. In retrospect, shill is likely the wrong word. I did get the feeling that the Porshe folks could do no wrong in the Mag's eyes but upon reflection, you are nowhere near as bad as the guys who put out the PCA magazine.

Sorry for overreacting.

Thanks

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by horizontally-opposed

Oh, and I, too, have always been a big fan of 968s, and still am -- partly for the same reason and partly because I've always liked the "other" Porsches quite a bit.

911s are great, but I like the alternative thinking and creativity Weissach engineers seemed to exercise in the other models. It's the 928 that gave us the Weissach axle and the 968 that gave us VarioCam and the 986 that gave us the new face of Porsche for the 21st century...one that was then adapted to the, you guessed it, 911.

pete

I still keep my eyes peeled for a value priced 968 coupe. The guys at renegade hybrids make a LS1 kit that I am itching to try in a 968.

[jeffsquire]

Originally Posted by horizontally-opposed

Just to let you know, Excellence has long called it as it sees it. The day we don't, or can't, is the day I'll need to find new work.

The 986
Don't get me wrong, I love Boxsters (and 356s, 914s, 911s, C-GTs, 964s, 993s,
Pete Stout
Editor, Excellence Magazine

Thanks, Pete. Great article and analysis. You're right that you're damned if you do and if you dont.