Over-steer or Under-steer... that's the question...

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by John V

I can go around a skidpad in steady-state understeer or steady-state oversteer. Does that mean the car oversteers AND understeers?

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot more to it than saying "this car understeers" or "this car oversteers." What are you doing when it over/understeers? Braking and turning into a curve? Going through the middle of the curve? Accelerating out of the curve? Going in a bit hot and decelerating / braking IN the curve? It's not as simple as people are making it out to be. With the Boxster (and several other cars I've been lucky enough to drive hard) you have so much control over what the car is doing, it's hard to just label the car as one thing or another.

I'm with you John V in that what you feel on a track is dependent on what you are doing with the car; however, if you are doing a skid pad test correctly you will find one or the other. In every case I have driven a production level car on an actual skid pad I have found understeer.

[John V]

Originally Posted by Sammy

I'm with you John V in that what you feel on a track is dependent on what you are doing with the car; however, if you are doing a skid pad test correctly you will find one or the other. In every case I have driven a production level car on an actual skid pad I have found understeer.

Sounds like a meaningless test, then.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by John V

I can go around a skidpad in steady-state understeer or steady-state oversteer. Does that mean the car oversteers AND understeers?

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot more to it than saying "this car understeers" or "this car oversteers." What are you doing when it over/understeers? Braking and turning into a curve? Going through the middle of the curve? Accelerating out of the curve? Going in a bit hot and decelerating / braking IN the curve? It's not as simple as people are making it out to be. With the Boxster (and several other cars I've been lucky enough to drive hard) you have so much control over what the car is doing, it's hard to just label the car as one thing or another.

Hi,

You have made your point and no one disagrees with you at all. A Driver can, through the modulation of Throttle and Brakes change the dynamics of the car.

But the Boxster, or any other car can be setup to favor either understeer or oversteer. As is the case with virtually all street cars, the Boxster is setup (through the selection of Tires, Tire Pressures, Spring Rates, Anit-Roll Bar Thickness and deflection, all Alignment Settings, etc.) to understeer - period.

You can go on and on about how this effect can be mediated by the driver, but two points need be added. A driver must be experienced and knowledgeable in order to be able to overcome the car's natural tendency (as setup) in a controlled way, as you predict. Most drivers are so experienced or knowledgeable, nor does the manufacturer make any such assumption that they are. So an inherent amount of understeer is dialed-into the car to begin with. And, if an average driver takes the wheel, his control inputs will generally cause the car to understeer as was the Manufacturer's intent.

If you understand suspension setups as much as you appear to, just looking at the OEM suspension alignment settings will prove to you that what I'm saying is correct...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[John V]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

If you understand suspension setups as much as you appear to, just looking at the OEM suspension alignment settings will prove to you that what I'm saying is correct...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Jim, I'm not trying to be difficult, but it's really impossible to know just by looking at the suspension alignment settings how the car will behave. I'm sure the engineers did what all engineers do: they started with a baseline (based on past experience, computer modeling, etc) and then went out and did some testing. From there, I'm sure they tweaked spring rate, tire size, ride height, ARB thicknesses, damper valving, alignment, etc to acheive the balance of ride and handling (and within that, the balance of safety and tossability) they wanted. But no matter how smart you are and how much you know about suspensions, it's impossible to just look at all these pieces of hardware and tell ANYthing.

Someone always mentions the skidpad test. I think it's the most over-published figure of merit when talking about automotive performance. How often are you driving a Boxster around a perfectly flat piece of pavement in a 100' radius curve? Not very frequently. More often, if you're driving spiritedly, you're dancing the car through a series of switchbacks. Or you're driving on a country road with rolling hills and fast, sweeping corners. Either way, it's dynamic. You're on the throttle, on the brakes. The corner decreases or increases in radius.

Forget spirited driving for a moment and consider a complete non-enthusiast driving the car. In certain circumstances, the car's natural tendency is to understeer. In other circumstances, the car's natural tendency is to oversteer. In fact, in my opinion the car is set up to oversteer in a situation which your average driver could encounter - the typical USA freeway exit ramp - which is a decreasing-radius corner after a high-speed straightaway. Go into that corner too hot and drop the throttle and the back end will come out. Your average Honda, Toyota or even BMW won't do that. Of course I like this kind of behavior - it makes the car interesting to drive, and it gives the driver a bunch of options when it comes to driving quickly. But when it's raining outside and my girlfriend has borrowed the car? I'm not thinking about it being a steady-state understeerer, I'm thinking "what are the odds she's going to back it into a guardrail?" (Fortunately, she can drive).

I think this is an interesting discussion, one that comes up frequently in my circle of autocross and track fiend friends.

[Topless]

As usual, you guys are both right. My car probably rolled off the lot with very slight tendancy to understeer. This is easily overcome with a little driver dynamics. Over time I have fine tuned my car to my driving style with different tire sizes, tire pressures and alignment, suspension is stock. It is now neutral and balanced to my driving style, maybe not so for someone else.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by John V

Jim, I'm not trying to be difficult, but it's really impossible to know just by looking at the suspension alignment settings how the car will behave. I'm sure the engineers did what all engineers do: they started with a baseline (based on past experience, computer modeling, etc) and then went out and did some testing. From there, I'm sure they tweaked spring rate, tire size, ride height, ARB thicknesses, damper valving, alignment, etc to acheive the balance of ride and handling (and within that, the balance of safety and tossability) they wanted. But no matter how smart you are and how much you know about suspensions, it's impossible to just look at all these pieces of hardware and tell ANYthing.

Someone always mentions the skidpad test. I think it's the most over-published figure of merit when talking about automotive performance. How often are you driving a Boxster around a perfectly flat piece of pavement in a 100' radius curve? Not very frequently. More often, if you're driving spiritedly, you're dancing the car through a series of switchbacks. Or you're driving on a country road with rolling hills and fast, sweeping corners. Either way, it's dynamic. You're on the throttle, on the brakes. The corner decreases or increases in radius.

Forget spirited driving for a moment and consider a complete non-enthusiast driving the car. In certain circumstances, the car's natural tendency is to understeer. In other circumstances, the car's natural tendency is to oversteer. In fact, in my opinion the car is set up to oversteer in a situation which your average driver could encounter - the typical USA freeway exit ramp - which is a decreasing-radius corner after a high-speed straightaway. Go into that corner too hot and drop the throttle and the back end will come out. Your average Honda, Toyota or even BMW won't do that. Of course I like this kind of behavior - it makes the car interesting to drive, and it gives the driver a bunch of options when it comes to driving quickly. But when it's raining outside and my girlfriend has borrowed the car? I'm not thinking about it being a steady-state understeerer, I'm thinking "what are the odds she's going to back it into a guardrail?" (Fortunately, she can drive).

I think this is an interesting discussion, one that comes up frequently in my circle of autocross and track fiend friends.

Hi,

Well you are being a little difficult. Nowhere did I say that the alignment specs alone dictated that the car over/understeers. But, in the case of the Boxster with + Camber in Front and - Camber in the Rear, coupled with the Tire size, width, inflation pressure, these do bias the car (any Car) toward understeer. Add the differing Tires widths, offsets, pressures (not to mention Anti-Roll Bars and differing Spring Rates F/R) and you have a car which absolutely understeers naturally - it simply MUST!

Also, you seem to be denying that a car even can be setup to favor one characteristic over another. This is just nonsense. Cars are setup to achieve a desired response on the road and manufacturers (and their Legal Depts.) always favor inputting understeer for safety and to make the car pleasurable to an average, or not so average, driver to drive. It's as much a Marketing thing as a Liability one, it gets the Secretaries to line up to buy one as well as the enthusiast. It makes the car easy to drive by most people's standards.

If the car is so setup, you must mitigate this natural tendency by altering the variables or driving style to negate or overcome these. You said earlier that a car cannot be setup neutrally and still be safe, but you fail to acknowledge that a car can and is setup to favor one characteristic over another. Everything else is just an Academic arguement which no one made, or disagrees with...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by John V

Sounds like a meaningless test, then.

Not exactly as you gain knowledge into the roadholding ability as well as proof that the suspension set up works as its designed/supposed to by understeering.

For us normal people it is probably a relatively meaningless other than we can see that a Boxster will be able to hold the road better than a Geo Metro...

[John V]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Well you are being a little difficult. Nowhere did I say that the alignment specs alone dictated that the car over/understeers. But, in the case of the Boxster with + Camber in Front and - Camber in the Rear, coupled with the Tire size, width, inflation pressure, these do bias the car (any Car) toward understeer. Add the differing Tires widths, offsets, pressures (not to mention Anti-Roll Bars and differing Spring Rates F/R) and you have a car which absolutely understeers naturally - it simply MUST!

This is where I disagree. I can build you a car with positive camber up front and negative camber in the rear, wider tires in the rear, stiffer front springs and STILL make that car oversteer in a steady state. It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be.

I think you understand what I'm saying and I understand your overall point about having a car that will have the front end lose traction before the rear in a steady state around a constant-radius corner. I guess that just isn't very useful information to have.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by John V

This is where I disagree. I can build you a car with positive camber up front and negative camber in the rear, wider tires in the rear, stiffer front springs and STILL make that car oversteer in a steady state. It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be.

I think you understand what I'm saying and I understand your overall point about having a car that will have the front end lose traction before the rear in a steady state around a constant-radius corner. I guess that just isn't very useful information to have.

Hi,

Again, you're delving into the realm of the Academic here. You may well be able to "build you a car with positive camber up front and negative camber in the rear, wider tires in the rear, stiffer front springs and STILL make that car oversteer in a steady state." I'm not disputing that. Nor do I dispute that there are greater complexities than those mentioned here.

But I don't believe that you can take a Boxster and "build a car with positive camber up front and negative camber in the rear, wider tires in the rear, stiffer front springs and STILL make that car oversteer in a steady state".

The Boxster naturally understeers. This has been both my experience, and many other members' experience. Virtually every Driver Review ever done on the car as well as the view of most Aftermarket Suspension tuners share the same view...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[John V]

Maybe it's a difference between the S and non-S cars, who knows.

I'll happily drive my neutral car and you can happily drive your understeering car and that's just fine.

[z12358]

Just curious, what are the definitions for over/understeering?

Originally Posted by z12358

Just curious, what are the definitions for over/understeering?

Good question, Z! I have used this a few times to educate myself on this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversteer

[GmanMD]

Just thought the following would be interesting to read. It's from Wikipedia:

A car that tends neither to oversteer nor understeer when pushed to the limit is said to have neutral handling. It seems intuitive that race drivers would prefer a slight oversteer condition to rotate the car around a corner, but this isn't usually the case for two reasons. Accelerating early as the car passes the apex of a corner allows it to gain extra speed down the following straight. The driver who accelerates sooner and/or harder has a large advantage. The rear tires need some excess traction to accelerate the car in this critical phase of the corner, while the front tires can devote all their traction to turning. So the car must be set up with a slight understeer or "tight" tendency. Also, an oversteering car tends to be twitchy and ill tempered, making a race car driver more likely to lose control during a long race or when reacting to sudden situations in traffic.

Carroll Smith, in his book "Drive to Win", provides a detailed explanation of why a fast race car must have a bit of understeer. Note that this applies only to pavement racing. Dirt racing is a different matter.

Even so, some successful race car drivers do prefer a bit of oversteer in their cars, preferring a car which is less sedate and more willing to turn into corners (or inside their opponents). It should be noted that the judgement of a car's handling balance is not an objective one. Driving style is a major factor in the apparent balance of a car. This is why two drivers with identical cars on the same race team often run with rather different balance settings from each other. And both may call the balance of their cars 'neutral'.

The full explanation of oversteer/understeer is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversteer

[z12358]

From the wikipedia article (which was written by who knows who):
"To put things in even simpler terms, when you turn into a corner, oversteer is when the car turns more than you expected and understeer is when it turns less than you expect."

Seems to me one cannot objectively define "overX" and "underX" without objectively defining "X" first -- and X here is "steering". When does the car turn more than you expect? And can different people have different expectations? Is it oversteer if you already expect it?

I know very little on this subject but I liked the 987S MUCH more than the 997 I tested. Much more neutral and controllable.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by GmanMD

Just thought the following would be interesting to read. It's from Wikipedia:
It should be noted that the judgement of a car's handling balance is not an objective one. Driving style is a major factor in the apparent balance of a car. This is why two drivers with identical cars on the same race team often run with rather different balance settings from each other. And both may call the balance of their cars 'neutral'.[/I]

The full explanation of oversteer/understeer is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversteer

This is so true. How different drivers set up for a corner greatly affects perceived car balance and handling. This is why every car that is driven to the limits of traction should be set up for driver style and preference. John and Jim might (and probably would) drive the same car and one would notice distinct understeer, the other would find the car very neutral to his driving style. Care to guess which one is which??

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Topless

This is so true. How different drivers set up for a corner greatly affects perceived car balance and handling. This is why every car that is driven to the limits of traction should be set up for driver style and preference. John and Jim might (and probably would) drive the same car and one would notice distinct understeer, the other would find the car very neutral to his driving style. Care to guess which one is which??

Hi,

Sorry, but this is not true. Understeer and Oversteer are not nearly as subjective as some here are trying to make it. These are very definite, measurable phenomena.

The definition can be quite simple - Oversteer, the Car steers deeper into a turn than the turn of the steering wheel would indicate and the Rear End will break away 1st, with Understeer the Car turns shallower than the steering wheel would indicate and the Front End will lose traction before the Rear.

But, the reason(s) this occurs are very complex and a combination of many factors from Track (F/R), Tire size and pressure (even Tire Temp), suspension deflection and settings, Body Roll, alignment settings, etc. Several of these are the result of a number of components which if altered, will also alter how the car responds.

All of this assumes the car is driven in a steady state. Change the dynamic of the car, and the handling characteristics will also change.

Now, all this can be quite different when viewed subjectively by a particular driver using their own driving style, but there is still a static tendency which has been built into the car, whether the driver perceives it or not.

The Boxster is setup by the Factory for the Street. As such, it has a slight Understeer dialed into it because this provides safer, more predictable handling (especially at high speed), it is generally more forgiving, especially to a novice or inexperienced driver. But, Porsche also provides optional equipment such as stiffer shocks and springs, anti-roll bars, front transverse control arms with adjustable Caster settings, for those who wish to adjust the car for Track use...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[jaykay]

.....just to jump in

After a long time on stock S roll bars am contemplating a change. I feel that the car does not turn in sharply enough and lacks front end feel in turns. There is very little oversteer unless it is wet or I have cold tires.

I am on: 18s along with Michelin PSS (for the street); PSS9s; all three strut braces; adjustable rear toe bars. Tire pressure is 30 to 31 up front.

I was considering a change to: both M030 bars and urathane bushes; camber plates to get the top of the front struts solid.

Are there other specific bushings I can target to get some better driver feedback?

[thstone]

Originally Posted by jaykay

.....just to jump in

After a long time on stock S roll bars am contemplating a change. I feel that the car does not turn in sharply enough and lacks front end feel in turns. There is very little oversteer unless it is wet or I have cold tires.

I am on: 18s along with Michelin PSS (for the street); PSS9s; all three strut braces; adjustable rear toe bars. Tire pressure is 30 to 31 up front.

I was considering a change to: both M030 bars and urathane bushes; camber plates to get the top of the front struts solid.

Are there other specific bushings I can target to get some better driver feedback?

The hydraulic power steering only sends a limited amount of feedback through the steering so a Boxster will never feel like a go-kart or an air-cooled 911 in terms of steering feedback.

But reducing/tightening up any of the slop in the front suspension will certainly help. But I worry that it may not completely solve your issue.

A Boxster Spec car (with 255's in front and adj GT-3 sway front/adj sway rear) has huge front end bite into corners and provides ample mid-corner feedback so you might want to head in this direction by increasing front tire width, stiffen the front sway bar, and soften rear sway bar.

Find someone who will let you drive their Spec Boxster to get an idea of what it feels like. And yes, I'll offer a drive in my car if you want to come to Cali.

[Burg Boxster]

[sigh]

MNBoxster... the poster who at one point probably had more threads locked down on 986forum than anyone else.

Smart idea to have popcorn handy when Jim posted - LOL.

Good times

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by thstone

The hydraulic power steering only sends a limited amount of feedback through the steering so a Boxster will never feel like a go-kart or an air-cooled 911 in terms of steering feedback.

But reducing/tightening up any of the slop in the front suspension will certainly help. But I worry that it may not completely solve your issue.

A Boxster Spec car (with 255's in front and adj GT-3 sway front/adj sway rear) has huge front end bite into corners and provides ample mid-corner feedback so you might want to head in this direction by increasing front tire width, stiffen the front sway bar, and soften rear sway bar.

Find someone who will let you drive their Spec Boxster to get an idea of what it feels like. And yes, I'll offer a drive in my car if you want to come to Cali.

Thanks, Tom I will definitely take you up on that! I may be out there looking for work soon!

Would just the GT3 bar upfront while leave the stock S in the rear provide a reasonable balance and starting point? I know many do it and it is all a matter of personal taste but I don't want to get into too much under steer......perhaps it wont be an issue as I am not on the limit at the track. I am just after some bite..

I am on 225s up front (265s rear) and it may be a while before I am able to source the right sport classic II wheel to handle the 255 tire. I think this may be 911 size somewhere in 993 996 18" offerings.