Misfires and flashing CEL

[Stl-986]

They could take a test sample all day long but that still wont tell them if there is water (generally speaking). they need to drain all of the tank and then the water will go to the top and fuel to the bottom.

You dont have to remove the headers for plugs, FSM doesn't even say to do that. Keep in mind he has it at the dealer so figure 4 hours labor and at least $30/plug. Little high, but I have seen dealers charging $185/hour lately.

[blue62]

Well my point was with O compression on two cylinders they want to change plugs.
WTF.
And charge $882.00 to drain the fuel and change plugs. Robbery.

[Stl-986]

I dont disagree at all.

On the plus side if it is fuel related he wont be on the hook for the bill.

I doubt it's fuel though.

If it were me I would have them to do a leak down test, followed by scoping the cylinders and then providing video of each cylinder.

[blue62]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

I dont disagree at all.

On the plus side if it is fuel related he wont be on the hook for the bill.

I doubt it's fuel though.

If it were me I would have them to do a leak down test, followed by scoping the cylinders and then providing video of each cylinder.

Scoping yes. A leak down test???? If you don't have compression a leak down test is not going to tell you anything new. Spending money to find out something he already knows.
O compression on 2 cylinders.

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

Well my point was with O compression on two cylinders they want to change plugs.
WTF.
And charge $882.00 to drain the fuel and change plugs. Robbery.

i’m 21, so they might just assume i’m a moron..... they said those plugs are fouled already and i said i know because i saw them when pulling them for a compression test. i had ran the car for maybe a minute while checking the wiring after installing them. He basically explained that they need to do their own diagnostic of the car, even though i did mine.

I daily drove a 72 karmann ghia for 3 years before i got this car. I know this is a totally different animal but i do know my way around a car.

[ecp]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

They could take a test sample all day long but that still wont tell them if there is water (generally speaking). they need to drain all of the tank and then the water will go to the top and fuel to the bottom.

You dont have to remove the headers for plugs, FSM doesn't even say to do that. Keep in mind he has it at the dealer so figure 4 hours labor and at least $30/plug. Little high, but I have seen dealers charging $185/hour lately.

That’s why i gave them the green light on draining the tank because i’m assuming they siphoned some out from the filler neck, and the tank is full.

I heard them say that for four hours of labor is $700, did the math and they’re charging $175/h

[ecp]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

I dont disagree at all.

On the plus side if it is fuel related he wont be on the hook for the bill.

I doubt it's fuel though.

If it were me I would have them to do a leak down test, followed by scoping the cylinders and then providing video of each cylinder.

That’s why i’m really hoping it is fuel. i mean i made it maybe 600 feet away from the station before it called it quits. the pump was a little slower than usual, and didn’t smell as strong as usual..... but then again the m96 has a reputation, and i also have a reputation of having strange coincidences

[blue62]

Originally Posted by ecp

i’m 21, so they might just assume i’m a moron..... they said those plugs are fouled already and i said i know because i saw them when pulling them for a compression test. i had ran the car for maybe a minute while checking the wiring after installing them. He basically explained that they need to do their own diagnostic of the car, even though i did mine.

I daily drove a 72 karmann ghia for 3 years before i got this car. I know this is a totally different animal but i do know my way around a car.

Yes I think you do very well for a young fella.
I never take a car to a shop unless it is a recall situation.
So some of the thing shops do and the price they charge seems crazy to me.
I understand that they want to do there own diagnostics of the car.
But in the end it is still about the bottom line.
I also understand that they have to make a profit to stay in business.
But to me $822.00 to drain the tank and change plugs is nuts.

The real issue is your engine.
You say the plugs were fouled when you pulled them to do the compression check.
How were they fouled????
wet oil? black carbon? black carbon with sort of a powdery look ??
Grayish with sort of a powdery ash look???
Just trying to get a feel for what happened based on any info you have

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

Yes I think you do very well for a young fella.
I never take a car to a shop unless it is a recall situation.
So some of the thing shops do and the price they charge seems crazy to me.
I understand that they want to do there own diagnostics of the car.
But in the end it is still about the bottom line.
I also understand that they have to make a profit to stay in business.
But to me $822.00 to drain the tank and change plugs is nuts.

The real issue is your engine.
You say the plugs were fouled when you pulled them to do the compression check.
How were they fouled????
wet oil? black carbon? black carbon with sort of a powdery look ??
Grayish with sort of a powdery ash look???
Just trying to get a feel for what happened based on any info you have

I’ve been burned by shops twice, and those were the last time i took my cars to anyone.

I installed a set of e3s out of curiosity in january and kind of forgot about it because the car ran well, and then re installed the lightly used berus that had maybe 2k miles on them last weekend. the e3s looked strange when i pulled them and i’ll post a photo if i can figure it out. i tried spraying sea foam into bank one from the intake boot (the one that connects the tb plenum to the runner with the hole for the valve) but never ran the engine enough to get it all through the system. I was trying to determine if it was a fuel issue by seeing if cylinders started firing when i sprayed it in (they didn’t)

But they looked wet, smelled a little oily, and a little like fuel and the tips were dark. looked a little like carbon to me but that could have been the sea foam loosening up deposits from the head and piston.

When i installed the berus they looked perfectly grey/tan and i’ll also attach photos if i can figure it out

[blue62]

Originally Posted by ecp

I’ve been burned by shops twice, and those were the last time i took my cars to anyone.

I installed a set of e3s out of curiosity in january and kind of forgot about it because the car ran well, and then re installed the lightly used berus that had maybe 2k miles on them last weekend. the e3s looked strange when i pulled them and i’ll post a photo if i can figure it out. i tried spraying sea foam into bank one from the intake boot (the one that connects the tb plenum to the runner with the hole for the valve) but never ran the engine enough to get it all through the system. I was trying to determine if it was a fuel issue by seeing if cylinders started firing when i sprayed it in (they didn’t)

But they looked wet, smelled a little oily, and a little like fuel and the tips were dark. looked a little like carbon to me but that could have been the sea foam loosening up deposits from the head and piston.

When i installed the berus they looked perfectly grey/tan and i’ll also attach photos if i can figure it out

So just spit balling here.
I would expect the plugs to be wet because of the Sea foam.
I would expect them to smell a little like fuel because the fuel/air mixture was not burning due to no compression.

Smelled a little oily hmmm and looked a little like carbon.!!!!
I would expect a little carbon if those Cylinders were getting a little oil in the fuel/air mixture when the engine was running.
carbon=burned oil.

Was your exhaust ever blueish or whitish or not looking right???

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

So just spit balling here.
I would expect the plugs to be wet because of the Sea foam.
I would expect them to smell a little like fuel because the fuel/air mixture was not burning due to no compression.

Smelled a little oily hmmm and looked a little like carbon.!!!!
I would expect a little carbon if those Cylinders were getting a little oil in the fuel/air mixture when the engine was running.
carbon=burned oil.

Was your exhaust ever blueish or whitish or not looking right???

Only when the aos failed. And then the replacement failed two months later. Nothing visual out of the exhaust, and i would have seen it because it’s a “race” exhaust.
There’s always a film of oil in the intake from the AOS. it wasn’t like that when i bought the car (it was bone dry inside), but i could never quite figure out why it never went back to having zero visual oil in the intake after replacement. maybe just an inferior part to the original i suppose, but good enough to pass.

[blue62]

Originally Posted by ecp

Only when the aos failed. And then the replacement failed two months later. Nothing visual out of the exhaust, and i would have seen it because it’s a “race” exhaust.
There’s always a film of oil in the intake from the AOS. it wasn’t like that when i bought the car (it was bone dry inside), but i could never quite figure out why it never went back to having zero visual oil in the intake after replacement. maybe just an inferior part to the original i suppose, but good enough to pass.

My intake always has a little oil as well.
I get the bit of blue exhaust on startup but just for the first few seconds.
My plugs always look like they should though.

keep us posted

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

My intake always has a little oil as well.
I get the bit of blue exhaust on startup but just for the first few seconds.
My plugs always look like they should though.

keep us posted

I’d rarely get blue on startup unless i parked on a steep hill and even that was rare.

hopefully i’ll find out something new tomorrow, and really hoping it’s something good

[ecp]

They found nothing in the gas tank. Looks like it’s just a really bad coincidence. they want $500 to do a bore scope and i just don’t know if it’s worth it at this point. Don’t know what to do

[blue62]

Originally Posted by ecp

They found nothing in the gas tank. Looks like it’s just a really bad coincidence. they want $500 to do a bore scope and i just don’t know if it’s worth it at this point. Don’t know what to do

You could buy a scope and do that yourself for around 20% of that cost or maybe less.

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

You could buy a scope and do that yourself for around 20% of that cost or maybe less.

I could, but i’m going to have them do it. i showed them the form racetrac sent me which just states is it in your professional OPINION that the gasoline caused the problems. i’m hoping a borescope will help them come to a conclusion about what happened. even after explaining what happened with the car they still think it sounds very bizarre. Holding out for anything good. If they can’t explain why the engine would blow like that, to me that points to one thing, but then again, i might be a little biased

[Stl-986]

I'm thinking the scope is going to help you figure out the problem. I haven't seen these happen with these cars, but anything is possible.

With my jetski's if the wrong plug is used or it is running too rich the piston's are known for getting holes burned out on the top of the piston, which in turn obviously causes no compression. On 2 cycle ski's this is always cause of not running the right mixture. Doesn't apply 100% to a car obviously but I think it COULD be possible to happen depending on the gas quality. Scope will be pretty obvious.

There are some very cheap cameras you can get on amazon that hook up to your phone, just for the future. Think I got one for around $15. Quality isn't great, but it does it's job.

[ecp]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

I'm thinking the scope is going to help you figure out the problem. I haven't seen these happen with these cars, but anything is possible.

With my jetski's if the wrong plug is used or it is running too rich the piston's are known for getting holes burned out on the top of the piston, which in turn obviously causes no compression. On 2 cycle ski's this is always cause of not running the right mixture. Doesn't apply 100% to a car obviously but I think it COULD be possible to happen depending on the gas quality. Scope will be pretty obvious.

There are some very cheap cameras you can get on amazon that hook up to your phone, just for the future. Think I got one for around $15. Quality isn't great, but it does it's job.

They said one valve is stuck open. they said it probably needs new head and cams but maybe it’s just a busted valve spring? or a busted lifter. or a busted cam. maybe it’s time to get my hands dirty again

[blue62]

Originally Posted by ecp

They said one valve is stuck open. they said it probably needs new head and cams but maybe it’s just a busted valve spring? or a busted lifter. or a busted cam. maybe it’s time to get my hands dirty again

Yep your not really going to know what happened until you start to get some visual feedback on it.

I was trying to think of what would cause two cyl. to loose all compression yet allow the engine to turn over and start.
Hole in both pistons very unlikely.
I thought maybe a busted cam with valves stuck open.
But you would think a piston would hit a valve if it was stuck open.
Then all kinds of things can happen.
So I am curious as to what happened.

[ecp]

Originally Posted by blue62

Yep your not really going to know what happened until you start to get some visual feedback on it.

I was trying to think of what would cause two cyl. to loose all compression yet allow the engine to turn over and start.
Hole in both pistons very unlikely.
I thought maybe a busted cam with valves stuck open.
But you would think a piston would hit a valve if it was stuck open.
Then all kinds of things can happen.
So I am curious as to what happened.

They said the pistons looked good. hoping for busted valve spring or a stuck lifter but i’ve already got a used head and cams priced out. just gotta get the car back and tear into it on a weekend