Is auto-temp control good, or a waste of money?

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"I didn't think this was an optional system, but I guess I'm wrong..."

I wouldn't be surprised if they skimped by making it optional in the 987 - which I don't mind. That's how the bare bones 987S becomes the best "bargain" in the Porsche universe.

Z.

[Marc Gelefsky]

So my question is, do all US spec 986 Boxsters have the auto AC??

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Marc Gelefsky

So my question is, do all US spec 986 Boxsters have the auto AC??

Hi,

Yes, I just found out that all US spec. 986s have the Automatic Climate Control, which is apparently optional on the 987. This unit (at least '97-'00) is actually made by Audi, while the compressor is sourced from Sanden. This Audi unit has some interesting features if you go into the diagnostic mode and can list lots of interesting information (on the display panel) which the Instruments don't provide such as Oil temp, Fan speed, real-time ambient temperature (Porsche is updated every 5 sec.) True vehicle speed (in kph), and several more.

But, a Manual Heat/AC system was produced for several ROW markets...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"Yes, I just found out that all US spec. 986s have the Automatic Climate Control, which is apparently optional on the 987. This unit (at least '97-'00) is actually made by Audi, while the compressor is sourced from Sanden. This Audi unit has some interesting features if you go into the diagnostic mode and can list lots of interesting information (on the display panel) which the Instruments don't provide such as Oil temp, Fan speed, real-time ambient temperature (Porsche is updated every 5 sec.) True vehicle speed (in kph), and several more.
But, a Manual Heat/AC system was produced for several ROW markets..."

Jim, that's amazing. How do you know all this stuff?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

MNBoxster:
"Yes, I just found out that all US spec. 986s have the Automatic Climate Control, which is apparently optional on the 987. This unit (at least '97-'00) is actually made by Audi, while the compressor is sourced from Sanden. This Audi unit has some interesting features if you go into the diagnostic mode and can list lots of interesting information (on the display panel) which the Instruments don't provide such as Oil temp, Fan speed, real-time ambient temperature (Porsche is updated every 5 sec.) True vehicle speed (in kph), and several more.
But, a Manual Heat/AC system was produced for several ROW markets..."

Jim, that's amazing. How do you know all this stuff?

Hi,

I dunno, just stuff I pick up here and there. I amassed a pretty deep database of all these Boxster odds & ends...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Jump

OK, I'm curious. What harm does running the AC with the top down cause?

Running the ac pump takes a few hp, using more gas. The pump will also wear out sooner. Also, turning off the car with the ac running leaves moisture in the ventilation system,which contributes to mold growth. This is what makes that sweat sock smell when you first run the fan.

[z12358]

blue2000s:
"Running the ac pump takes a few hp, using more gas. The pump will also wear out sooner."

So how is this different when the top is up? By this logic, running the wipers, playing music, or taking a lady for a ride "takes a few hp, using more gas", too.

Z.

[redman12]

Originally Posted by IowaS

The only time I need temp control is on work days in the summer, I dont want to drive to a meeting in 100 deg. heat and sweat. I use it rarely but when needed it is worth it in my opinion.

Basically you don't want the hot chicks in the meeting to smell your b.o. lol

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Running the ac pump takes a few hp, using more gas. The pump will also wear out sooner. Also, turning off the car with the ac running leaves moisture in the ventilation system,which contributes to mold growth. This is what makes that sweat sock smell when you first run the fan.

Hi,

Technically, you're correct. But, also realize that the Compressor on the Boxster is a variable pressure type and can be running anywhere between 5%-100% of rated output depending upon demand (Ambient Temp and desired Temp Setting).

This is to both enhance Range (MPG), and maximize Perfomance (reduced parasitic power loss). But, I think we can all assume that running the AC Top DOWN on a warm day will have it operating at, or near, 100%.

Also, remember to run your AC at least 2 min./mo. (top UP or DOWN) to circulate the Compressor Oil though the system for both the Compressor and also to delay drying out of the 'O' rings.

It's certainly true about the Sweat Sox in the Vent system though...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[z12358]

IowaS:
"The only time I need temp control is on work days in the summer, I dont want to drive to a meeting in 100 deg. heat and sweat. I use it rarely but when needed it is worth it in my opinion."

When it's that hot the last thing I'd need is temp control. A blast of "uncontrolled" cold AC air does the job just fine.

Z.

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"But, I think we can all assume that running the AC Top DOWN on a warm day will have it operating at, or near, 100%."

It has been my understanding that the non-temp-control (standard) AC doesn't care about what the ambient temp is. There's no feedback loop informing the AC how hot it is in the cabin. I just set it manually how cold I want it to blow. So, yes, if I set it to "coldest" it WILL work at 100%; if I set it to the middle of the range it will blow at 50% -- regardless of top up or down. Am I wrong?

Z.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

MNBoxster:
"But, I think we can all assume that running the AC Top DOWN on a warm day will have it operating at, or near, 100%."

It has been my understanding that the non-temp-control (standard) AC doesn't care about what the ambient temp is. There's no feedback loop informing the AC how hot it is in the cabin. I just set it manually how cold I want it to blow. So, yes, if I set it to "coldest" it WILL work at 100%; if I set it to the middle of the range it will blow at 50% -- regardless of top up or down. Am I wrong?

Z.

Hi,

I cannot say for sure on the Manual 987 unit. But I am talking about the Compressor, not the Fan speed. The Manual 987 has most of the data available (from various sensors) to regulate some compressor load, but, it may not have the processor (in the Climate Control unit) to do so. It may simply not be as variable (have the same 5%-100% range) as the Auto Climate Control, but I suspect that there is some, something like the AC and AC MAX settings on older cars..

With the emphasis today on reduced emissions, increased range (MPG), and maximized performance, I cannot imagine Porsche de-evolving the design. But, who knows...??

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Technically, you're correct. But, also realize that the Compressor on the Boxster is a variable pressure type and can be running anywhere between 5%-100% of rated output depending upon demand (Ambient Temp and desired Temp Setting).

This is to both enhance Range (MPG), and maximize Perfomance (reduced parasitic power loss). But, I think we can all assume that running the AC Top DOWN on a warm day will have it operating at, or near, 100%.

Also, remember to run your AC at least 2 min./mo. (top UP or DOWN) to circulate the Compressor Oil though the system for both the Compressor and also to delay drying out of the 'O' rings.

It's certainly true about the Sweat Sox in the Vent system though...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

The variable load ac systems will also reduce their draw when you open the throttle fully to allow max power to the wheels. But in general, it's using up hp.

I'm not sure where the 2min/month # comes from but it probably is good for the pump seals to get some lubrication.

To prevent the bad smell from the vents, run the fans at full blast without the ac on for a couple of minutes before turning the car off. It dries the water out of the ventalation system.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

...I'm not sure where the 2min/month # comes from but it probably is good for the pump seals to get some lubrication....

Hi,

From the Dealer Service Manual. It says to run the AC for 2 min. for fully circulate the Compressor Oil. This is because the Compressor Oil - ND 8 (a synthetic), has poor mutual solubility with the refrigerant (R-134a). It is moved through the system by the R-134a, and it takes this long to transfer the required amount through the system.

Most Compressor Oils, and ND 8 in particular, are somewhat chemically unstable. If left static in the system, it will react, particularly with metals like Steel and Copper (found in the Compressor). It's acidity rises with this reaction, and this can attack the system's components over time. So this is one reason you want to operate the system for at least 2 min./mo., to circulate the oil away from the compressor to other parts of the system.

Also, when installed, the 'O' rings at the various junctions in the system are coated with fresh compressor oil to keep them from reacting with the refrigerant, which effectively dries them out. By running the compressor at least monthly as described, you give these a fresh coating of oil, extending their lifespan.

Finally, if left stagnant, the Oil lubricating the compressor will settle, creating dry spots on bearings, compressor vanes, etc. This will accelerate wear to the compressor and it's internals. Again, circulating the oil keeps these dry spots from occuring.

I am EPA 609 Certified. A very easy and inexpensive process. I did it several years ago to be able to purchase R-12 OTC, to maintain my Esprit and my Datsun 240Z for about 1/3 the cost of having a shop do it. I took an exam online (after reading the text book from the Library), passed, getting more than the required 21 of 25 questions correct, paid my $15 and received my certification. Anyone can do it, though I see the cost for the exam has risen (like everything else) to $19.95. If interested, check it out at: http://www.epatest.com/e_609cert.html . Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

BTW, Good advice on drying out the vents!

[Rome]

Auto Climate Control is the biggest ripoff among Porsche's many overpriced options...I can't believe they actual charge $550 for this and get away with it...I think it is insulting in a car of this price, even worse than floormats.

Virtually every dealer ordered car has it because it is a tie in with the so called "preferred package".

On the '07 987S I just ordered, I bagged it and ordered a sport steering wheel and crests in the headrests for about the same money. Who needs it in an open top car.

P.S. If you don't order it, the button which usually says "auto" will say "max."

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Rome

Auto Climate Control is the biggest ripoff among Porsche's many overpriced options...I can't believe they actual charge $550 for this and get away with it...I think it is insulting in a car of this price, even worse than floormats.

Virtually every dealer ordered car has it because it is a tie in with the so called "preferred package".

On the '07 987S I just ordered, I bagged it and ordered a sport steering wheel and crests in the headrests for about the same money. Who needs it in an open top car.

P.S. If you don't order it, the button which usually says "auto" will say "max."

Hi,

Basically I agree. I also find it a bit profiteering of Porsche to have offered the Auto as Standard (US Market ONLY - supposedly to create better value/price) for the 986 and to pull it back on the 987 - AMAZING!

As you said, I suspect that 90% of the cars will have this option, primarily due to Dealer Orders, and some Nazi decendant is gonna make a € Bonus because he figured out how to make an additional $550/Unit Sold for basically nothing!

Someone said "more back to basics" - BS! I doubt the Auto system weighs 1 pound more than the standard one and doesn't affect performance 1 iota...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[z12358]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Basically I agree. I also find it a bit profiteering of Porsche to have offered the Auto as Standard (US Market ONLY - supposedly to create better value/price) for the 986 and to pull it back on the 987 - AMAZING!

As you said, I suspect that 90% of the cars will have this option, primarily due to Dealer Orders, and some Nazi decendant is gonna make a € Bonus because he figured out how to make an additional $550/Unit Sold for basically nothing!

Someone said "more back to basics" - BS! I doubt the Auto system weighs 1 pound more than the standard one and doesn't affect performance 1 iota...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Perhaps. perhaps not. You can also look at it this way: By not making the auto-climate standard on 987 they are actually offering more: the option not to have it if you find its cost unjustifiable (which I did). On 986 that option wasn't available so you paid for it (via the base price) whether you wanted it or not. Due to production line issues it may have been more cost efficient for Porsche NOT to offer the optionality on the auto-climate for 986 but to simply include it in all cars. For 987 they may have figured out a cost efficient way to INCLUDE that option, which they did. I don't see how allowing more choices is bad for the buyer.

I never understood "standard" vs "option" arguments saying: "I can't believe this is not standard in this day and age.". It's all the same money. You can either pay it through the base price (if it's standard) or as a separate option. Heck, I wouldn't mind having wheels being optional. Why get the OEMs if I don't really like them and am planning to switch them anyway. Japanese cars (especially Lexus) like to guess what one needs so they package everything standard or offer these mega-packages with options packed and linked together. I prefer freedom to decide for myself, i.e. a la carte.

So I'm happy that the auto-climate wasn't standard, thus making the base price $500 cheaper.

Z.

[Rome]

Originally Posted by z12358

Perhaps. perhaps not. You can also look at it this way: By not making the auto-climate standard on 987 they are actually offering more: the option not to have it if you find its cost unjustifiable (which I did). On 986 that option wasn't available so you paid for it (via the base price) whether you wanted it or not. Due to production line issues it may have been more cost efficient for Porsche NOT to offer the optionality on the auto-climate for 986 but to simply include it in all cars. For 987 they may have figured out a cost efficient way to INCLUDE that option, which they did. I don't see how allowing more choices is bad for the buyer.

I never understood "standard" vs "option" arguments saying: "I can't believe this is not standard in this day and age.". It's all the same money. You can either pay it through the base price (if it's standard) or as a separate option. Heck, I wouldn't mind having wheels being optional. Why get the OEMs if I don't really like them and am planning to switch them anyway. Japanese cars (especially Lexus) like to guess what one needs so they package everything standard or offer these mega-packages with options packed and linked together. I prefer freedom to decide for myself, i.e. a la carte.

So I'm happy that the auto-climate wasn't standard, thus making the base price $500 cheaper.

Z.

This is not really correct...The cost, to Porsche, of making the auto climate control standard is negligible. It is basically a chip which goes into the unit. I suspect the cost of adding that is a very, very small fraction of the $550 charge. To me, this is pure profiteering from a US market which "expects" there to be climate control in a car of this price, so it gets wrapped up in the "mega packages" and people wind up paying $550 without even really knowing it.

When I was spec'ing out my car (chosing options 'a la carte') I had to look at upwards of 30 987's at 4 different dealerships before I found one without auto climate. (I wanted to see what the auto button looked like if you didn't order auto-- sure enough, it just says "max" instead). And, it turned out the the one I found was custom ordered and the buyer pulled out, so the car was still hanging around. Every dealer said they just order on of the mega packages when they are filling their allotment.

[z12358]

Rome, whatever the case, you can't call it "profiteering" which refers to a situation when someone profits from charging exorbitant prices to buyers which -- due to sircumstances -- do NOT have the freedom to refuse the deal.

I prefer the transparency of the a la carte where all prices are there for you to see vs lumping things in as standard. It's a free market, and the buyer has the ultimate freedom to walk away from a deal that doesn't make sense to him. When I talked to dealers, I even told them what options are valuable to me and which ones aren't so most of them were ready to discount those options much more. Anything works in a free market.

My 06 S has the "prefered package" and I don't have the "auto" (I have the "max" button), so they must have included the auto-climate in the pref package for the 07. I agree, most cars I saw when I was looking came with the pref package, but I didn't mind it as it had features I'd have ordered anyway.

Z.

[Rome]

Originally Posted by z12358

Rome, whatever the case, you can't call it "profiteering" which refers to a situation when someone profits from charging exorbitant prices to buyers which -- due to sircumstances -- do NOT have the freedom to refuse the deal.

I prefer the transparency of the a la carte where all prices are there for you to see vs lumping things in as standard. It's a free market, and the buyer has the ultimate freedom to walk away from a deal that doesn't make sense to him. When I talked to dealers, I even told them what options are valuable to me and which ones aren't so most of them were ready to discount those options much more. Anything works in a free market.

My 06 S has the "prefered package" and I don't have the "auto" (I have the "max" button), so they must have included the auto-climate in the pref package for the 07. I agree, most cars I saw when I was looking came with the pref package, but I didn't mind it as it had features I'd have ordered anyway.

Z.

I do understand free market economics...but there is no doubt Porsche is seizing upon impulse buyers who just buy what is in stock, which I suspect is a very high percentage of the market. This is nothing new in the car business. Personally I enjoy spec'ing the car and give a lot of thought to which options I want to order.

Interestingly, when I spec'd my Cayenne S (which is my daily driver), I ordered a lot of high end options (Full Leather, Nav, Bose, Xenons...and yes...auto climate), BUT I cut out 2 of the convenience package items which you see in almost every Cayenne-- one was the auto dim interior lights (which was something like $500) and the other was the seat memory (also like $500+). If you look at those "packages"-- and they change the names and groupings all the time based on their parts inventory-- it always seems like there are one or two things in there which are totally unnecessary and/or way overpriced (at least to me). Like you, I think it is far better, and more fun, to just order a la carte (and I actually like the anticipation of waiting to see my creation).

P.S. You might be right about '07...or it might be called the "convenience package" (there are a few different named packages) which includes the auto climate...not sure...which might explain why it wasn't in your car.