2005 987S 20,000 mile report

[eslai]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

For that price, I can't imagine they actually changed the Rotors, at list price, the Pads and Rotors total $668 alone (and that's an old Price List). They're correct that you cannot machine the drilled Rotors, too difficult for the lathe and greatly increases the risk of cracking.

As stated, 2-3 Pad changes per Rotor change, a little more like 2 would be the norm. A Pad change at 18,800mi. indicates pretty severe use, even for just City driving. They should go closer to 30k-35k mi., but everybody's driving style differs.

Glad they only took the Arm and left the Leg...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Ah, I missed you, my condescending friend. Very difficult to type these days while missing an arm.

The pads were changed at 20,000 miles, by the way, not 18,800.

I have the service slip from the dealership and they did do the brakes and rotors for less than $700, no baloney! The rotors are definitely brand new--have the honing marks and all that on them, no lip, rust, dust, etc. My old ones were nicely grooved.

It did sound fishy to me--I'm the type of guy that uses rotors until they're really crappy, then smoothe them out with harsh race pads at the track. The funny thing is that my service advisor didn't even mention the fact that cross-drilled rotors are murder for the lathe (although it hasn't been *too* difficult to find shops that would turn cross-drilled/slotted rotors in Los Angeles), instead he just said that "machining the rotors takes them below minimum thickness".

I'm not sure if he just means that the rotors won't last through two sets of stock pads? Don't know. In any case I trust my guy and it wasn't enough money to worry about it too much. If I paid $300-$400 about eighteen months early, not a big deal.

I'm told stock pads last anywhere from 20,000 to 35,000 miles, which is better than I'm used to in general for performance brakes so the brake job didn't have me worried at all.

It's the busted shock and the transmission that bug me. I'm told that there's nothing I could've done to bust the shock in this fashion, that it was a premature failure. No one gave me any grief about that, thankfully, but it does have me worried about the durability of PASM.

Here's the story on the transmission. Both failures were the same--the car would pop out of second gear--meaning that the collar that selects 1st and 2nd was failing, I'm assuming. It would pop out in such a fashion that it wouldn't be completely in neutral--it'd be riding the gear teeth and making a NASTY noise.

It failed the first time at like 5000 miles I think. They replaced it under warranty but pulled my rev counts and told me that they were replacing the tranny under good faith--that my engine rev counts indicated that I had overrevved the engine. THey said further rev counts could void my running gear warranty.

I was miffed. There were a total of THREE engine cycles at level three, which is the beginning of overrev and the first indication that a customer is beating on a car. Didn't really argue the point although give me a break--I maybe misshift once when the car is new (and three engine cycles? Hell, I wouldn't even have had the clutch pedal all the way out before realizing the problem and stomping it back down! The tranny never would have had full engine load) Is this not a Sports Car? Did these parts come off a Golf?!

When I got the car back things seemed to be okay for a little while but things quickly went south. The transmission started popping out again, although a little more subtley--it would feel like you had shifted into second, but when you let out the clutch, surprise!! Grinding noise, etc. It happened very inconsistently though so I tried to wait for it to get worse before reporting it to the dealership.

They replicated the problem at 18,800 and replaced it on "good faith" again, again blaming me for beating on the transmission. However, my level three rev counts hadn't changed since 5000 miles! Still just three rev counts.

So, how can Porsche say I beat on the car and destroyed two transmissions? No one saw any evidence of crazy wheelspin, no one said anything about heat marks or other evidence of a misused clutch/flywheel. Did anyone actually check my shifter cables and the shift mechanism in general after the first failure? The shift throw on these cars is like rowing a boat--are the cable lengths within tolerance? Heim joints? What does the 1-2 shift fork look like? Did second gear get pressed properly into place on the input or output shaft? Has anyone back in Germany actually cracked open the transmissions to look for defects, or is it really Porsche's policy to shoot first and ask questions later?

All I know is that they say that if it breaks a third time, they say that they need my authorization to crack open the transmission (again, what the heck did they do with the last two?!) and if they find that the damage was my fault, they will not cover it under warranty. Which is interesting--you'd think they'd need to also crack open my friggin' car to see if anything external to the transmission caused the failure! It isn't always the nut behind the wheel, y'know.

As an aside, the Southern California Regional Service Manager is UNBELIEVABLE. He started off our relationship by refusing to give me his phone number. He stated that it was for business calls only and that if he gave it out, it would impede his ability to make outgoing calls. How ridiculous is that? How do you start a business dialogue of any sort without providing your phone number to the other party?! Porsche has great people in Customer Commitment, seriously, but the people that actually make the decisions seem to be the classic representation of what you Jim, and Bruce Lee always say about Porsche. Arrogance Defined.

[super66]

stupid question, what's over reving technically? I mean this is my first stick shift car and I will go from 2nd to 4th and slide out the cluth, revs shoot up calmly and the car starts slowing down.....is there a rpm you aren't supposed to shoot past or is it simply don't break into the red line and you are okay?

Sorry to hear about the problems.....I asy if you burn a third don't authorize them cracking it open, have them fix it again and ditch it and try a fresh car....

[Pilot2519j]

Bummer for you but I think driving style is the likely culprit. I had a 1988 Audi 90 Quattro last me over 120, 000 miles on a original clutch with lots of miles in congested highways, Long Island distressway & Manhattan. The car was far from perfect since it ate 3 generators, no clue why? While I don't baby the car I not one to drop the clutch at 4000 or 5000 rpms either. I started driving sticks in 68 and I always been careful with brakes & clutch. I never race corner to corner. When I see traffic slowdown I downshift rather than stump on the brakes. Driving with prudence does not mean I don't like driving the car sometimes at high speeds and with spirited cornering which I do when road conditions & traffic allow. I drive my car everyday and I have already put 30,000 miles on my 2003S, brakes are fine and the clutch at times is notchy going into second( it must be a German thing since that would happen in my last car 2001 S-4) but that is a few times and far between. I love the car and it seems to be durable. Just examine your driving characteristics and maybe that will change your maintance issues. Just and opinion not an attack to a fellow Group member. Good luck.

[Brucelee]

This is fascinating and points out how these things are taken in the Porsche world.

So, I go out an buy a $55K plus SPORTS CAR that is aimed at the performance driver. This company stress thees RACING HERITAGE of the marque and trades on that to charge much for the car and its service/repair. After all, it is a PORSCHE!

When a driver comes in with a NEW car that has a BAD trans, I blame him for hitting the rev limiter a few times. Then when the trans goes again and he has NOT hit the limited since, I blame HIM again!

OK, what is wrong with this picture?

OK, now all you guys who apologize for the spotty reputation of the Box on reliability, come and dump and on me.

C'mon guys, Porshce needs to hear from us/you.

Oh sorry, I just saw the last post, it is the DRIVING STYLE that does it.

BTW-If this guy is dumping the clutch at 5K RPM, why is his clutch still intact?

[Pilot2519j]

Oh sorry, I just saw the last post, it is the DRIVING STYLE that does it.

BTW-If this guy is dumping the clutch at 5K RPM, why is his clutch still intact?[/QUOTE]

I think you are having a bad day. How can anyone know what caused these failures as alluded by the writer? You have to be kidding me. All types of machines have failures but along that line you have to assess driver input. Porsche should be accountable and remedy the flaws if any exists in the Group member's car. The clutch item which you quote was just an example of someone abusing the car not meant to infer that the fellow group member was a culprit but we all seen plenty of people that do indeed subject the clutch like that and then ask Gee what happened? Suggestion take two aspirins and calm down it was not meant to be personal.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Pilot2519j

Oh sorry, I just saw the last post, it is the DRIVING STYLE that does it.

BTW-If this guy is dumping the clutch at 5K RPM, why is his clutch still intact?

I think you are having a bad day. How can anyone know what caused these failures as alluded by the writer? You have to be kidding me. All types of machines have failures but along that line you have to assess driver input. Porsche should be accountable and remedy the flaws if any exists in the Group member's car. The clutch item which you quote was just an example of someone abusing the car not meant to infer that the fellow group member was a culprit but we all seen plenty of people that do indeed subject the clutch like that and then ask Gee what happened? Suggestion take two aspirins and calm down it was not meant to be personal. [/QUOTE]

I didn't take it PERSONALLY but apparently the So CAL Porsche Customer Service guy did!

BTW- that guy has a rep within the dealer service depts. To say he is not loved is an understatement.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

BTW- that guy has a rep within the dealer service depts. To say he is not loved is an understatement.

I complained about him to Customer Commitment, who forwarded it up the chain. I also will be sending a letter to Doug Battie and Scott Codute personally, which seem to be the next two bosses up from him in his chain of command. I've also witnessed personally how abusive he is to the service reps and am wholly unimpressed.

Now, the talk about "sell your car" is all interesting to me too. My problem is that I'm hooked--if I sold the car, I'd want to turn around and buy a 2007 987S. Sad eh?

I'd probably lose about $12,000 in that deal, even with any compensation that Porsche may see fit to throw my way.

Conundrum. My service guy has been saying that I should keep the car and that the dealership would take care of me, but that sounds like a fool's game.

Advice? There is really nothing else out on the market for a daily driver within my price range that impresses me.

[SD987]

Welcome back Eslai, sorry to hear about your transmission woes.

As far as the brakes go, when I did 20k on the 987 base they told me that a front brake job wouldn't be that far off in my future.

Not to state the obvious, but I don't think we should be surprised by a decrease in the service life of new pads and rotors from what has historically been that of the 986. The S brakes are exactly the same between the 986 and 987 and only the rears are different in the base but the 987s are, of course, more powerful and have an 18% increase in brake assist.

That's a great price you got. For those in the San Diego area I can email the 15% brake service coupon and 10% scheduled maintenance coupons. I've had no complaints with Pioneer's service department and their pricing seems better than most that I've compared to in SoCal, certainly better than Hoehn, which is the only other local alternative.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by dbth

Sell your car.

Yes, I agree. However, if they check the warranty claims log at Porsche, who will buy it?

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

I agree that Driver Input can contribute to or mitigate a weak or poor design. In the case of the former, often trouble can be avoided altogether, in the latter, one may be able to forestall or delay, but usually not eliminate the possibility that the machinery will eventually fail.

Some people Drive em like they Stole em, as a group, these people are more likely to have more failures and higher repair and maintenance costs. Some drive them like the proverbial Little Old Lady, these people may also experience relatively higher failure rates and maintenance costs, but usually to different components than the 1st group, because they aren't working the machine hard enough. Then there is the group which drives the car as it was meant to be driven, but respects the machinery (usually with some greater understanding of how it all works). These people usually have the fewest problems and lowest maintenance costs. One is not better than the other, but the consequences of their driving practices often differ tremendously.

We see this in racing too. There are drivers out there who suffer more DNFs due to mechanical failures than others. And those who have a reputation of respecting the machine and usually have a higher % of Finishes.

I'm on the fence on this one, and in fact wouldn't be surprised if there's a little of both at play here. It would seem that the Dealer does as well. The odds of getting 2 bad transmissions, in the same car, are probably astronomical. One thing which favors this is the low mileage at which both units failed (mechanical devices usually die in either early life or old age. In the former, bad assembly or design can be the culprit. In the latter, the device simply wears out - reaches it's designed lifespan) But, driver input can also lead to early failure, so this too cannot be eliminated. In fact, should the 3rd Tranny begin experiencing issues, this factor probably jumps to the forefront.

Redlining a car, or exceeding it, isn't the only way to shorten it's lifespan or that of the transmission. Merely the practice of keeping one's hand on the stick while driving and inadvertently applying pressure can lead to early wear to the balk rings or synchros. Shifting early or late can also have detrimental effects. And there are many others too.

I am making no judgement so far as Eslai's style of driving one way or the other. I don't think there's sufficient evidence to do so. But, neither do I think there's sufficient evidence to rule it out as a contributing factor either, especially when we're seeing a need for Brake Service a little early too.

As I said earlier, I suspect that there's probably a little of both going on, but this is sheer speculation. In other words, if someone were to give me this as a hypothetical, with an unknown driver, based on what we know, this would be my first, but not necessarily my last, hunch. So I'm not slamming Eslai here in any way. We already know this car ain't the most reliable on the Planet...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[eslai]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Redlining a car, or exceeding it, isn't the only way to shorten it's lifespan or that of the transmission. Merely the practice of keeping one's hand on the stick while driving and inadvertently applying pressure can lead to early wear to the balk rings or synchros. Shifting early or late can also have detrimental effects. And there are many others too.

Thanks for the objective statements, Jim.

The problem is, I'm not doing anything that I consider "classic tranny killers". I'm not engine braking--I'm matching revs. I'm not leaning on the shifter like a gangster--I return my hand to the wheel after every shift. I'm not dropping the clutch from 6000 RPM--I have never launched the car. I'm not speed shifting, power shifting or otherwise driving like a hooligan.

The only thing I do that is at all a "drive it like you stole it" thing, is I use the entire power band. I would expect that to offer up less-than-stellar engine life, but nothing else and certainly not within 20,000 miles.

The fact that they WERE willing to replace both transmissions indicates to me that they DON'T have a leg to stand on. The fact that I've gone through two trannies tells me that the car had issues.

As for the brakes, I fully expected to have less-than-optimum brake life, as I am hard on the brakes--I have a daily commute that involves a fairly steeply-graded offramp that chews up brakes. That, and I brake a little hard due to my time on race tracks. I don't consider brakes a huge expenditure, so I don't treat them kindly.

Transmissions though, I'm like a mother with a newborn!

[Perfectlap]

changing cars would surely tell you if you're driving style is the problem. If you have no problems in the new car then there you have it. They didn't exactly completely overhaul the 06 tranny did they??
Me suspects it just 1st year redesign woes. Maybe bad build quality/procedures and things are internally not as well put together. A reason why people bite their nails and wait until the 2nd year.
It sounds to me that the Porsche not being so rare in SoCal has lead Porsche reps to becoming very stupid, from showroom sales people to service managers.
They need to hire more folks from Lexus, and other more customer valued co's.
Ditch the Mazda/Toyota attitude. I got plenty of that when I had my Miata and POS corolla. I think they hire their sales people from electronic stores and their service reps from Jiffy Lube. Sometimes I felt like tape recording my interactions and sending the tape to everyone from the franchise owner to the CEO.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by eslai

Thanks for the objective statements, Jim.

The problem is, I'm not doing anything that I consider "classic tranny killers". I'm not engine braking--I'm matching revs. I'm not leaning on the shifter like a gangster--I return my hand to the wheel after every shift. I'm not dropping the clutch from 6000 RPM--I have never launched the car. I'm not speed shifting, power shifting or otherwise driving like a hooligan.

The only thing I do that is at all a "drive it like you stole it" thing, is I use the entire power band. I would expect that to offer up less-than-stellar engine life, but nothing else and certainly not within 20,000 miles.

The fact that they WERE willing to replace both transmissions indicates to me that they DON'T have a leg to stand on. The fact that I've gone through two trannies tells me that the car had issues.

As for the brakes, I fully expected to have less-than-optimum brake life, as I am hard on the brakes--I have a daily commute that involves a fairly steeply-graded offramp that chews up brakes. That, and I brake a little hard due to my time on race tracks. I don't consider brakes a huge expenditure, so I don't treat them kindly.

Transmissions though, I'm like a mother with a newborn!

Hi,

All sounds OK to me, I was just stating the obvious that in any failure, especially a premature one, driver involvement cannot be automatically ruled out.

It's a b*tch going through the things you are, and I hope you're seeing the end of it. But, with luck like yours, no offense, I don't wanna be sitting in the seat next to yours on the airplane...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

I do think this 05 trans is from a new manufacturer. That alone could be the issue.

Yes, Porsche could learn TONS from Lexus.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

It's a b*tch going through the things you are, and I hope you're seeing the end of it. But, with luck like yours, no offense, I don't wanna be sitting in the seat next to yours on the airplane...

I hope so too, as I really can't imagine continuing problems like this. I can't really sell the car now and buy an '07--I'd be losing too much money in the process. Best hope is to get an extended warranty out of Porsche or something. I love the car; I hate the car.

And yeah, you wouldn't want to sit next to me on the plane. I would fall asleep and drool on you. Not only would you crash, but you'd crash with another man's drool on you and that's just not right!

bmussati: Nice picture! I haven't managed to get these rotors to light up though.