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Old 12-27-2018, 09:04 AM   #1
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How Much Should Damage History Affect Value?

I'm looking at a Boxster that shows rear end collision on the Carfax. Happened over 10 years ago, not with my Seller, but with the prior owner. Seller says he was told it was a very minor low speed impact and only required repair (not replacement) of the rear bumper cover and nothing else. Work was professionally done, and the current pictures don't show any signs of damage. No photos of the original damage, no body shop bill. I asked.

I have no reason to doubt my Seller, however, the fact of the matter is, is that he doesn't really know what happened, nor do I. So let's assume that it is in fact the minor low speed damage that it was stated to be, doesn't affect appearance and driveability, and that nothing is uncovered on a PPI regarding this. Fact still remains that it is a stain on the vehicle's history. Obviously, if you hypothetically took two identical cars, one with this history, one without, the one with the damage history is going to sell for less. (Many buyers won't even consider a car with damage history, even if minor and professionally, competently repaired.)

So how much less? On an '03 I would figure there should be roughly a $2,000 difference. Sound about right, assuming the above facts?
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Old 12-27-2018, 09:54 AM   #2
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Work was professionally done, and the current pictures don't show any signs of damage. No photos of the original damage, no body shop bill. I asked.
Red flag #1. No way to know if the work was really professionally done.


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I have no reason to doubt my Seller,
Red flag #2. Always doubt the seller. Unless its in writing (or can otherwise be confirmed), you have to assume it's not true.

We all want to believe in our fellow man, but a lot of people have no problem lying to your face when selling a car.

I spent over $2,000 on unplanned repairs on my Boxster when I bought it with a blown engine. The seller assured me that there was NOTHING else wrong with the car except the engine. Nothing. He was emphatic, sincere, and seemed like a genuinely nice guy. And he was a liar. Unless you have a lot of spare cash laying around with no where to go, don't be me.


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So how much less? On an '03 I would figure there should be roughly a $2,000 difference. Sound about right, assuming the above facts?
I'd say 15%-25% less. That might sound harsh but the buyer is taking all of the risk.

And speaking of risk, a mandatory PPI would include an inspection by a body shop to confirm that the repair was done properly and that the chassis is in alignment.
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Old 12-27-2018, 10:22 AM   #3
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10 yrs is a while ago, but the important question is how many miles since the "incident"? And how many owners since the incident? That is more useful info.

An 03 is 15 yrs old. Stuff happens to cars that are driven. Yes, there are pristine examples out there but there are also examples that have some nicks. Of course they're going to tell you it was minor. If an inspections shows replacement inner construction panels welded in, then it wasn't minor. At that point you should walk away since you don't know what other lies are lurking.

And the final point - the money you save at purchase of a damage repaired car is the money you lose when you sell it.
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Old 12-27-2018, 11:23 AM   #4
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10 yrs is a while ago, but the important question is how many miles since the "incident"? And how many owners since the incident? That is more useful info.
It's 11 years, about 30k miles, and one additional owner (i.e., my Seller) since then.

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An 03 is 15 yrs old. Stuff happens to cars that are driven. Yes, there are pristine examples out there but there are also examples that have some nicks. Of course they're going to tell you it was minor. If an inspections shows replacement inner construction panels welded in, then it wasn't minor. At that point you should walk away since you don't know what other lies are lurking.
Undoubtedly, I would walk away if that happened. But if an inspection reveals nothing except a little bondo and repaint, no reason to walk away from an otherwise good car, IMHO. Like you said, 15 years, stuff happens. Only issue is how much the issue diminishes value.

FWIW, my Seller bought the car about 15 months ago, he did a PPI at a Porsche dealer, I saw the report and there was no mention of anything. Of course they might have missed it.

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And the final point - the money you save at purchase of a damage repaired car is the money you lose when you sell it.
Exactly why I'm focused on it. When it comes time for me to sell, my Buyer will be asking the same questions and thinking the same things that I am.
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Old 12-27-2018, 11:35 AM   #5
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I had a '01S which was hit in the rear. $1200 or so. Stretch the bumper cover, replace the shocks and the bumper bar. A few bolts and screws. No body panel or light damage. I did use the opportunity to get the Bumperettes painted along with the bumper. 5 years later, couldn't tell the difference and a PPI couldn't even find it. I sold with full verbal disclosure and written repair order and after incident picture available but not even viewed. Had they looked the newer parts could even have been a plus.

Use it as a reason to get the seller to OK the PPI and then maybe $500 or whatever you can get the seller to give you. Some will to sell especially in this season. Some won't. There are hundreds out there..
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Old 12-27-2018, 11:43 AM   #6
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I had a '01S which was hit in the rear. $1200 or so. Stretch the bumper cover, replace the shocks and the bumper bar. A few bolts and screws. No body panel or light damage. I did use the opportunity to get the Bumperettes painted along with the bumper. 5 years later, couldn't tell the difference and a PPI couldn't even find it. I sold with full verbal disclosure and written repair order and after incident picture available but not even viewed. Had they looked the newer parts could even have been a plus.

Use it as a reason to get the seller to OK the PPI and then maybe $500 or whatever you can get the seller to give you. Some will to sell especially in this season. Some won't. There are hundreds out there..
How much do you feel your sales price was discounted due to the accident vs. the car with a clean history?

How many mph was the collision?
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Old 12-27-2018, 12:36 PM   #7
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y'all, just my opinion, but I think this is just a tad silly for a 15-20 year old car that will NEVER be a collectible. Nor will it EVER be worth more than it is right now.

Cars get hit. Cars get repaired. If it doesn't drive right, isn't properly aligned, squeaks or rattles more than it oughtta, or otherwise shows signs of improper repair, then steer clear.... or get a smokin' bargain on it. But if none of that is true, then don't worry about it.

And if you're worried about the resale on it, I wouldn't. There are far more buyers like me, who couldn't care less what the carfax says (as long as it doesn't show lies that have been covered-up), than there are buyers who want a "perfect" car for their money. Just be as honest as your own first-hand knowledge of the car and its history allows you to be when you sell.
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Old 12-27-2018, 12:46 PM   #8
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y'all, just my opinion, but I think this is just a tad silly for a 15-20 year old car that will NEVER be a collectible. Nor will it EVER be worth more than it is right now.

Cars get hit. Cars get repaired. If it doesn't drive right, isn't properly aligned, squeaks or rattles more than it oughtta, or otherwise shows signs of improper repair, then steer clear.... or get a smokin' bargain on it. But if none of that is true, then don't worry about it.

And if you're worried about the resale on it, I wouldn't. There are far more buyers like me, who couldn't care less what the carfax says (as long as it doesn't show lies that have been covered-up), than there are buyers who want a "perfect" car for their money. Just be as honest as your own first-hand knowledge of the car and its history allows you to be when you sell.
Maytag, I think that's excellent advice. I'm ok with buying a car that's had a damage history, some guys would avoid it like the plague. But I wanna make sure that the damage was minor, professionally repaired, that there are no issues like the ones you mentioned, and that I don't overpay. Simple as that.
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Old 12-27-2018, 02:40 PM   #9
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I’m with Maytag.
On a 15-20 year old car, If you wouldn’t know about the damage unless you read about, what difference does it really make? Sure, with two very similar cars, on with damage is worth less but I doubt it’s more than a few hundred dollars or so.
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Old 12-27-2018, 06:46 PM   #10
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I'm looking at a Boxster that shows rear end collision on the Carfax. Happened over 10 years ago, not with my Seller, but with the prior owner. ...
There are probably more 15 year old cars out there that have had undocumented minor collision repair than those that show on CarFax. To me, the car is what it physically is as presented for sale. Don't trust CarFax, don't trust the seller, trust the actual condition as verified in a detailed inspection. If you are spending a sum that is significant to you, have a PPI by a reputable third party.

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On an '03 I would figure there should be roughly a $2,000 difference.
$2,000 difference from what? KBB? Cars.com? No. There are just too many variables in the care and condition of a car that age. My offer (or bottom $ as seller) would be specific to the condition of that car, which could vary a couple thousand regardless of mileage. Again, PPI and how the car is Now.
I would pay significantly less for a car with a branded title (Rebuilt, Flood, Repo, etc.). Not for any worry, but because to me, the title is part of the car and a brand is unrepairable damage.

I concede that my opinions may be contrary to other good advice and I have no special skill at buying and selling cars. Just throwing it out there to fill out the discussion.
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Old 12-27-2018, 06:56 PM   #11
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There are probably more 15 year old cars out there that have had undocumented minor collision repair than those that show on CarFax.
That's absolutely true. But we can only deal with what we know, not what we don't know. Carfax's limitation is not what they tell you, but what they don't tell you. Carfax doesn't know everything.


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$2,000 difference from what?
The "$2,000" that I mentioned was what I would guestimate the difference would be in sales price between two hypothetical identical cars, except that one has a (non-structural) damage history and the other one has a clean history. I understand that there are lots of other variables, and that a used car, particularly a 15 year old one, is not a commodity like the way a new car is.
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:34 PM   #12
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I think you're over thinking this and alot of the other subjects you have posted about. Just find one you like make an offer and buy one,done. Buying a boxster is a bit of a risk. You have to except the fact that you might get burned but the reward should be worth the risk. It was for me. There is no 100 percent perfect car at this age. According to some they were all flawed from the get go.
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Old 12-28-2018, 04:27 AM   #13
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y'all, just my opinion, but I think this is just a tad silly for a 15-20 year old car that will NEVER be a collectible. Nor will it EVER be worth more than it is right now.

Cars get hit. Cars get repaired. If it doesn't drive right, isn't properly aligned, squeaks or rattles more than it oughtta, or otherwise shows signs of improper repair, then steer clear.... or get a smokin' bargain on it. But if none of that is true, then don't worry about it.

And if you're worried about the resale on it, I wouldn't. There are far more buyers like me, who couldn't care less what the carfax says (as long as it doesn't show lies that have been covered-up), than there are buyers who want a "perfect" car for their money. Just be as honest as your own first-hand knowledge of the car and its history allows you to be when you sell.


+1
I'm amazed at how ridiculously obsessive some people (not specifically referring to OP) are about buying a 15 yr old used car with any sort of defect. If you tried to lowball my car for $2000 as that seller, I'd tell you to walk away

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$2,000 difference from what? KBB? Cars.com? No. There are just too many variables in the care and condition of a car that age. My offer (or bottom $ as seller) would be specific to the condition of that car, which could vary a couple thousand regardless of mileage. Again, PPI and how the car is Now.
I would pay significantly less for a car with a branded title (Rebuilt, Flood, Repo, etc.). Not for any worry, but because to me, the title is part of the car and a brand is unrepairable damage.
agreed
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Old 12-28-2018, 05:09 AM   #14
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Did the seller state why he/she is getting rid of the car after only 15 months? The short term ownership would bother me more than the accident 10 years ago.

When I was looking to buy mine I stayed away from ones where someone owned it for a year and was selling or one that had 5 owners.

If the owner who had the accident kept and drove the car for an additional ~9 years, that accident probably didn't destroy it as a good driver. But I would want a new PPI to ensure there isn't a new, major issue causing the seller to bail on the car.
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Old 12-28-2018, 08:52 AM   #15
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Ben & Jmitro,

Guys, I've bought many used cars in my life, only bought 2 new cars in my life, never got a bad used car, only real good ones, I've checked them out myself, never had a shop do a PPI on them. I've always paid a fair price for the used cars I bought -- never rock bottom, never sky high. I know what's involved in buying a used car. But buying a 5 year old VW or a 2 year old CPO BMW is not the same thing as buying a 15 year old Boxster. I owned one Porsche before, about 30 years ago, and that was bought new. Wasn't at all familiar with the early Boxsters.

So I wanted to bone up on my knowledge about the early Boxsters, learn about the potential problem areas, know what to look out for, get a good sense of what's a fair price, and generally, be a smart buyer. Not obsessive compulsive, just trying to be careful, go into with my eyes wide open, rather than as a bumbling idiot.

I'm new on this Forum and I appreciate all of the great advice and info I received from everyone.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:40 PM   #16
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Any doubt take it to TKX Performance in Huntington Station for a PPI. Taso and crew are excellent.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:55 PM   #17
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Any doubt take it to TKX Performance in Huntington Station for a PPI. Taso and crew are excellent.
TY for the recommendation, but this particular car is in TX, so the PPI will be done there. We're still a little bit apart on price, so it's a "maybe" right now.

Locally, I have a great Porsche indy shop 15 minutes away from me here in Westchester. The place has a stellar reputation. Every Porsche guy I run into in the area sings their praises. They'll be servicing my car once I find one.

But funny you should mention Huntington Station. I looked at a 2006 987 S at Habberstad BMW about a month ago (it's still available). Price was a little high and it felt good, but not great. If I wanted to pursue it, I would have been asking around for a good Porsche indy shop nearby for a PPI, but that one's off the list.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:57 PM   #18
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Did the seller state why he/she is getting rid of the car after only 15 months?
. . . .

I would want a new PPI to ensure there isn't a new, major issue causing the seller to bail on the car.
The guy got the Porsche bug and just bought a 911. Doesn't need/want the Boxster anymore. And I spoke to the local PCA club, and they know the guy and confirmed that.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:19 AM   #19
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Normally I'm a big proponent of knowledge (history, data, specs, etc)... but on occasion, the availability of such info can *sometimes* be a bad thing as they relate to our decision processes. Regarding car backgrounds, the internet now offers more than a wealth of information, unfortunately not all incidents are a "red flag, run away!", and even worse, many times the same "red flags" are not even listed. Given the selective reporting, I suppose it would be wise to weigh all info rather than passing on a car that has a report listed...but having said that, I've done the "accident damage? I'll pass" thing in the past. Now here's where I'll say something controversial...

Accident damage possibly could (or should) increase value....well, on occasion.

As an example... We have an Audi Q5 and about a year ago my wife was involved in a minor accident; at a stoplight, the person in front of her decided they were too far in the intersection and suddenly backed up. On first inspection, it appeared that their bumper only broke the plastic surround around the fog light and caused a minor scrape on the bumper. At the body shop, they found the bumper cover was actually slightly cracked, as well as a few plastic tabs holding the grill. Further inspection showed that a tab on the headlight assembly was broken, as well as a few other plastic clips here and there, as well as (for some reason) a very slight misalignment of the hood.

(This part is only my impression of how *some* body shops work as well as how the whole claim/insurance/adjustment dance happens.) Some shops (I suppose thinking that an adjuster will trim amounts) will write a "pie-in-the-sky" estimate, which would include replacement of anything that they think might be damaged, and in the end, the adjuster approves a smaller amount...or at least that's how I've normally experienced the process...but in this case, the adjuster (for whatever reason) approved the ENTIRE list of what could be done. Maybe it was because a commercial vehicle was involved and that company just approves anything, or maybe, or maybe....

In any event, we ended up with an almost new front end, or at least in appearance. New bumper, grill, fog lights, headlights, hood and a re-spray of everything forward of the A-pillar. Again, there was NO structural or mechanical damage, just cosmetic and a few components, and all parts used were genuine Audi. I failed to mention that our Q5 is a 2010 with (then) about 80,000 miles.

As a result, our car now appears factory new and even has new headlights. Will "accident damage" appear in a report? I suppose. Will it present better than any other 2010 Q5? Definitely. Would a buyer be wary of the "red flag"? Maybe, but if so, will be missing out on a really nice car.

Is it for sale? Nope. Maybe before the repairs, but now it just looks too darn nice.
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:47 AM   #20
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If someone lowballed me $2g's because the car had a minor fender bender 10 years ago I'd guess I'd suggest they put their offer where the sun don't shine. Not a serious offer! Someone already paid to have the boo boo fixed, one shouldn't have to pay for it again. If it drives okay, looks okay, and passes a PPI get it for whatever you and the seller can agree on.
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