Discussion about a Boxster being an "investment"

[Prelude Guy]

Hi all,

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

I currently have 4 cars. 2 projects cars -1989 240SX hatchback with an SR20DET engine swap with basic bolt-ons and a Garrett GT2560R turbo and a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with minor bolt-ons. My daily driver is a 1997 Honda Accord LX station wagon with 275K miles. I installed several OEM Prelude upgrades as well as a 2.3L SOHC VTEC Honda Accord F23A engine from the 1998-2001 chassis. Planning to do some minor suspension upgrades and possibly a 220HP Euro R Accord H22 swap with LSD trans soon. Finally, I still have the first car I bought brand new. A 2001 BMW 325ci automatic. Completely stock with OEM 18" wheels from a 2009 335i. Never driven in the snow and rarely in the rain. Fantastic shape.

Ok, with that out of the way, I have somewhat of a weird question for you. As you can see based on the cars I drive, I like cars from the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I am a little older now and have decided, even though I can afford ~$100K car, I prefer to buy older cars. There's just something about the older more raw cars from that time. I don't enjoy the driver-assisted cars of today. In fact, I think my attitude towards new cars is widely shared and is growing in popularity. I think the trend we will see is car-guys will likely still buy new cars, but they will also look to own an older car as their "fun car"/weekend car.

A little background on what I do with cars. I have been buying up older cars, fixing them, keeping them as close to stock, but mainly focusing my efforts on refreshing the car and bringing them up-to-date on the maintenance. The emphasis is on making the car better than when it came from the factory. Like with my 240SX. I bought a clean chassis that had a blown engine. I planned on swapping out the engine. I did the fewest modifications to make more power, but still be as reliable as possible. The rest of the money went towards refreshing the suspension with as many OEM/300ZX OEM upgrades/Nismo parts as possible. Things like shocks and springs are aftermarket, as well as exhaust, strut tower bars, anti-swaybars and wheels. The end goal of my cars are to be a car that enthusiasts want to buy since most older cars are hacked up and pieced together with aftermarket parts without any attention to normal maintenance.

My three used cars have proven to be good investments. I can sell my 240SX, M3, and Accord wagon for as much as I have put into them, if not more. I bought all 3 when the market for them hit rock-bottom. Bought my 240SX for $750 12 years ago, M3 for $4K 4 years ago, and my wagon for $2500 4 years ago. I think as time marches on, they will continue to go up in value as clean cars from that era will become harder and harder to find, especially in good condition.

This thought process has led me to here. I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars. I noticed the Boxster has hit the bottom. I never really cared for the Boxster because I preferred the S2000. I think the 986 Boxster is an under-rated car - then and now. I feel this car will become more desired as the years pass by, mainly because they will become rare since many are blowing engines at an alarming rate.

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars? Pick up a roller for around $2500, focus the money on making the engine reliable (seriously considering a rebuilt and upgraded 2.9L from a company like Raby). Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years? I can see that happening.

Your thoughts?

[BYprodriver]

I say no! If it's a Box "S" with 3.6L+, Yes. My 1st new ca was a 1986 Prelude SI. Why don't I ever see a Prelude in SoCA??

[husker boxster]

Welcome to the forum. It can be fun to do the Wheeler Dealer imitation. I dabble in that mode during the winter months when I can't golf.

There's one minor problem with your Porsche plan. While values of early Boxsters have dropped into the sub-$10 range and around $3-4K for a roller, prices on parts have not dropped. High market Euro car makers charge a fortune for their parts, as much as 4x the cost of Japanese equivalent parts. You can run up a pretty big bill replacing bushings, control arms, struts, etc. And an engine from a place named Raby starts at $10K and goes up depending on what you want from the engine. Let me say a Raby engine is worth it if you need a replacement, but it's not inexpensive. You can quickly end up investing $15-20K all in. You won't be able to sell one for that because someone else has one for 1/2 that price and a potential customer won't understand how perfect yours is compared to the beater.

Early Boxsters are ending up being salvaged with very little damage because the price of new parts to fix them is more than they're worth. People are starting to buy them and fix them with used parts and staying above water but you have to be careful of hidden damage. There will be more and more lightly damaged cars on the mkt because of the cost to repair.

Good luck with your plans.

[Dlirium]

Originally Posted by husker boxster

Welcome to the forum. It can be fun to do the Wheeler Dealer imitation. I dabble in that mode during the winter months when I can't golf.

There's one minor problem with your Porsche plan. While values of early Boxsters have dropped into the sub-$10 range and around $3-4K for a roller, prices on parts have not dropped. High market Euro car makers charge a fortune for their parts, as much as 4x the cost of Japanese equivalent parts. You can run up a pretty big bill replacing bushings, control arms, struts, etc. And an engine from a place named Raby starts at $10K and goes up depending on what you want from the engine. Let me say a Raby engine is worth it if you need a replacement, but it's not inexpensive. You can quickly end up investing $15-20K all in. You won't be able to sell one for that because someone else has one for 1/2 that price and a potential customer won't understand how perfect yours is compared to the beater.

Early Boxsters are ending up being salvaged with very little damage because the price of new parts to fix them is more than they're worth. People are starting to buy them and fix them with used parts and staying above water but you have to be careful of hidden damage. There will be more and more lightly damaged cars on the mkt because of the cost to repair.

Good luck with your plans.

Plus, when a new engine costs 2x the value of the car, it's easy to get upside down on these very quickly...

We all go to bed praying that our IMSB will stay together for one more day :-)

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

Hi all,

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

I currently have 4 cars. 2 projects cars -1989 240SX hatchback with an SR20DET engine swap with basic bolt-ons and a Garrett GT2560R turbo and a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with minor bolt-ons. My daily driver is a 1997 Honda Accord LX station wagon with 275K miles. I installed several OEM Prelude upgrades as well as a 2.3L SOHC VTEC Honda Accord F23A engine from the 1998-2001 chassis. Planning to do some minor suspension upgrades and possibly a 220HP Euro R Accord H22 swap with LSD trans soon. Finally, I still have the first car I bought brand new. A 2001 BMW 325ci automatic. Completely stock with OEM 18" wheels from a 2009 335i. Never driven in the snow and rarely in the rain. Fantastic shape.

Ok, with that out of the way, I have somewhat of a weird question for you. As you can see based on the cars I drive, I like cars from the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I am a little older now and have decided, even though I can afford ~$100K car, I prefer to buy older cars. There's just something about the older more raw cars from that time. I don't enjoy the driver-assisted cars of today. In fact, I think my attitude towards new cars is widely shared and is growing in popularity. I think the trend we will see is car-guys will likely still buy new cars, but they will also look to own an older car as their "fun car"/weekend car.

A little background on what I do with cars. I have been buying up older cars, fixing them, keeping them as close to stock, but mainly focusing my efforts on refreshing the car and bringing them up-to-date on the maintenance. The emphasis is on making the car better than when it came from the factory. Like with my 240SX. I bought a clean chassis that had a blown engine. I planned on swapping out the engine. I did the fewest modifications to make more power, but still be as reliable as possible. The rest of the money went towards refreshing the suspension with as many OEM/300ZX OEM upgrades/Nismo parts as possible. Things like shocks and springs are aftermarket, as well as exhaust, strut tower bars, anti-swaybars and wheels. The end goal of my cars are to be a car that enthusiasts want to buy since most older cars are hacked up and pieced together with aftermarket parts without any attention to normal maintenance.

My three used cars have proven to be good investments. I can sell my 240SX, M3, and Accord wagon for as much as I have put into them, if not more. I bought all 3 when the market for them hit rock-bottom. Bought my 240SX for $750 12 years ago, M3 for $4K 4 years ago, and my wagon for $2500 4 years ago. I think as time marches on, they will continue to go up in value as clean cars from that era will become harder and harder to find, especially in good condition.

This thought process has led me to here. I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars. I noticed the Boxster has hit the bottom. I never really cared for the Boxster because I preferred the S2000. I think the 986 Boxster is an under-rated car - then and now. I feel this car will become more desired as the years pass by, mainly because they will become rare since many are blowing engines at an alarming rate.

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars? Pick up a roller for around $2500, focus the money on making the engine reliable (seriously considering a rebuilt and upgraded 2.9L from a company like Raby). Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years? I can see that happening.

Your thoughts?

The car is a mass produced depreciating asset, not an investment. Just on the numbers produced, your concept is flawed. Add in that you intend to put a lot of money into the car, be fully prepared that you won't get it all back, much less profit.

[Giller]

Unfortunately, to a lot of the world.....it's JUST a Porsche. It just isn't exotic enough to ever be an investment. (specifically referring to the Boxster). No more than a BMW Z4 will be or any Mazda Miata's will be.....

Doesn't have the cache of a Ferrari or Lamborghini or other high end exotics.

Which for me is alright. Just means as they age, they will depreciate, and I can pick up a 'newer' one ever few years to keep relatively current.

[j.fro]

I remember in the late 1980's when 914s were under $1000. There were plenty of them out there and nobody except the hardcore 914 folks ever thought they'd be worth anything. This year the "Poor Man's Porsche" was honored at the Amelia Island concours. Try finding a driving 914 for $1000 now!
The 986 (and 996) will eventually appreciate, but it won't be for a while. Compared to current cars with extensive computer assisted driver aids, they are pretty raw and minimalist, but they are not clumsy the was even earlier cars can be. The niche for our cars will emerge, but it will take some time.
One last note... You can bet there are collectors who have hidden away 986/996s with only delivery miles. A driven/restored car will never compete with that.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

Welcome and its always great to have another car guy join the 986Forum!

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars.

You didn't miss anything. I bought an '88 944 Turbo three years ago for $9K. I gave it to my son and we've put another $10K into it. Its now worth $14K. He's holding onto it because he loves it - I don't see any financial upside within 10 years.

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars?

No. Not unless you love the car and plan to keep it. Selling it and getting back out what you put it will be a challenge and not likely to happen.

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years?

No. Not even in 20 years.

Far too many Boxster's were built so there is no rarity factor. The parts are very expensive. There are a lot of things that go wrong and need expensive repairs. A Raby engine rebuild is $15,000 and very few people will be willing to pay a premium for it on resale. The bottom line is that you are highly unlikely to never get your money back.

The best advice that I can give you is to find the best 78-83 911SC that you can find for under $25K. This is a car that you will have good odds of returning what you put in (or more) in 3-5 years.

[particlewave]

I don't think they'll skyrocket any time soon, but I am somewhat pleased that '99 986's with similar or even higher mileage than mine are now selling for about the same or more than I paid for mine 4.5 years ago.

I paid $10k in 2011. A '99 now can go for as much as $9-$11k in my area after hitting a low of $6-$7k a year or two ago.
Definitely not an investment in $, but a great investment in fun!

[rick3000]

I do not see the 986 as an investment, considering the maintenance costs it would be the worst investment I have ever made. If you are buying a mass produced car as an investment you really need to reconsider. That said, I do see 986 prices stabilizing and even rising.

I would say 986 prices bottomed a few years ago, and have been climbing very, very, very slowly since. I think this is likely because as the original and 2nd owners have unloaded them in the sub-$10k range, the buyers in the sub-$10k range are balking when hit with the high maintenance costs (which is completely reasonable when you compare the maintenance cost to the value of the car). This leads to a lot of 986's being taken off the road, which thins the supply, pushing prices up, very, very slowly.

This is nothing new, and happens to almost all Porsches at some point. Just look at the used 911 market over the last several years. Or the 944, or the 914 over the last 30 years. If you still have a good condition, low mileage 986 in 30 years it might be worth something, but you will have probably spent five times the profit on maintenance by then.


@ Luv2Box, all Porsches get classified as 'classic' after a certain number of years. It just means the price of spare parts goes up, as they produce smaller batches less often.

[DWBOX2000]

I think they will eventually appreciate like the 914. The early s cars are hot rods, that were really a lot different than the base performance wise. I don't think the base needed any legitimacy but the s definitely helped the boxster reputation. They do have a few electricAl gizmos I do not like but otherwise, they are DIY friendly from what I have read which will also make them attractive. The ims issue will become a thing of the past much like big the issues with certain 911 years. The 986 also started the mid engine craze which seems to be a growing trend which I think people will notice. If 928s can go up in value, why can't the 986? Out perform, just as visually beautiful and easier to work on. Not sure I will keep mine until that day (college) but I bet I will wish I had.

[Fyeganeh]

Here is an estimate of the survival rate of cars. So the oldest of these cars are about 18 years. Less than 10% survive to 30 years. So in 12 years the supply will be very limited as about 70-80% of the current first generation will go to the dust bin.

[Jim Rockford]

Originally Posted by Fyeganeh

Here is an estimate of the survival rate of cars. So the oldest of these cars are about 18 years. Less than 10% survive to 30 years. So in 12 years the supply will be very limited as about 70-80% of the current first generation will go to the dust bin.

Don't think a survival rate curve applies to Porches. Isn't it some inconceivably large percentage of all Porches ever made still being on road today?

Interesting debate though. Good points for both sides. Time will tell. First it was air cooled as being the craze, but now the turbocharging of newer Porsches and the Boxster going I4 could very well move things into the 986's favor. I agree with the point that mid engine is emerging as the ubiquitous supercar recipe and that should shine a light on the Boxster as well.

Unless one is buying a car to shelve though, as has been mentioned, the black hole of parts and repairs will be a formidable force in undermining the economics towards profit. Even if you were to beat the odds and do planned maintenance only that cost alone plus the diminishing impact from miles on the chassis will add up. And if you don't drive it frequently the ticking sound in your head gets louder... you know the IMS demon on your shoulder that reminds you of the time bomb in your garage that needs to be driven frequently but not frequently enough that you mile the car up and eat up your profit potential. Bit of a catch 22.

[Fyeganeh]

Porsches die just like every car. The only reason there are so many surviving as compared to made is because they are growing the number made each year so fast. On the other hand the large companies are shrinking or not growing that fast.

Further the 986 will die at a faster rate because of the lower resale price. People won't want to fix these cars because it costs more to fix them than just buying another one used and letting that one die too. Also they will be used up as racing vehicles and from people putting on high mileage because they are priced cheaper. People are less likely to hold them as "investments" and not drive them given the low price they are going for.

And if you believe the IMS issue then they are dying off at a higher rate as well. Time itself also kills the car by the break down of plastics, corrosion etc. - you don't even have to drive it.

Put all this together and the 986 is likely dying off at the rate of the low MPG cars in the graph or maybe even faster. But definitely faster than a 996 given its higher price. How many people are going to spend 5-10k fixing a dead engine on a 10k car vs a 996 costing the same 5-10k to fix but the car worth 20-25k. Also the 996 likely has fewer miles on it because people just parked it.

I've tried to estimate by resale rates how many of the original cars survive and my guesstimate is on the order of 50%. That's a very rough figure.

[faverymi]

When I buy any car is to have fun and drive it.

When I need to make money I buy and sell stocks.

I make money so I can have more cars.

Not that complicated right???

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by Jim Rockford

Don't think a survival rate curve applies to Porches. Isn't it some inconceivably large percentage of all Porches ever made still being on road today?....

Originally Posted by Fyeganeh

Porsches die just like every car. The only reason there are so many surviving as compared to made is because they are growing the number made each year so fast. On the other hand the large companies are shrinking or not growing that fast....

As Mark Twain said, there are 3 types of liars - liars, damn liars and statisticians.

Whenever I hear one of the car companies - Subaru, Volvo, Land Rover, etc., advertise that X% of their cars built in the last Y years are still on the road, I wonder what the numbers are by year. Because likely 85% of their cars were built in the last 5 years and 85% of those cars are still on the road. Making the % of cars older than 5 years that are still on the road largely irrelevant.

Some of us are old enough to have been around when one of those Ferraris that now sell for millions or more could be had for $25,000 or even less. And we didn't have the money then, because that was a lot of money then!

Some day there will be some Boxsters that are worth some big money. But it will be hard for anyone to be making money on those Boxsters whatever the price ultimately is. The others are right who say buy it to enjoy and don't look at it as an investment.

[Perfectlap]

It sounds to me like you're trying to keep up a hobby you enjoy while making a little money or at a minimum hit BEP (break even point), all without putting out a great sum of money before you sell the car.

If that's your plan I would say it will NOT work with water cooled Porsches. The cars that can most insure you get your money back, air cooled, are expensive to buy now because of their limited availability, so right off the bat before you've bought a single spark plug you've committed a great deal of money. The costs to restore the car can easily mushroom out of control. And the buyers will not pay top dollar unless the car is worked on by someone with a great deal of experience with Porsche.

Meanwhile, the problem with the water cooled cars is that people who can afford to maintain and repair these cars are not generally interested in keeping them long term, they dump them to buy a new car. And the people who will buy an old sports car by and large are skittish about German luxury brands. So you're catering to a very small pool of buyers who will all drive a hard bargain. If your costs get out of control you'll be lucky to sell at a profit.

I think your current plan is better, stick with popular Japanese cars. These have more buyers, and those buyers see these cars as daily drivers and scratch the sports car itch.
If you like a 928 or 944 it's good that your handy because eventually the only people driving these cars will be DIY'ers because of the costs of parts and labor will be too high for most. As far as the 986/987 and 996/997, their futures are a bit uncertain. High mileage examples will need costly engine work to address lifters, IMS/clutch, water pump, AOS, etc., the costs of these in parts can easily exceed the value of the cars, definitely once you add in suspension overhaul. Sure you can buy a roller and drop in a low mileage donor engine but that's going to scare off many prospective buyers who, as Warren Buffett would say, generally avoid buying what they don't understand, unless it involves home mortgages.

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

Hi all,

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

I currently have 4 cars. 2 projects cars -1989 240SX hatchback with an SR20DET engine swap with basic bolt-ons and a Garrett GT2560R turbo and a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with minor bolt-ons. My daily driver is a 1997 Honda Accord LX station wagon with 275K miles. I installed several OEM Prelude upgrades as well as a 2.3L SOHC VTEC Honda Accord F23A engine from the 1998-2001 chassis. Planning to do some minor suspension upgrades and possibly a 220HP Euro R Accord H22 swap with LSD trans soon. Finally, I still have the first car I bought brand new. A 2001 BMW 325ci automatic. Completely stock with OEM 18" wheels from a 2009 335i. Never driven in the snow and rarely in the rain. Fantastic shape.

Ok, with that out of the way, I have somewhat of a weird question for you. As you can see based on the cars I drive, I like cars from the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I am a little older now and have decided, even though I can afford ~$100K car, I prefer to buy older cars. There's just something about the older more raw cars from that time. I don't enjoy the driver-assisted cars of today. In fact, I think my attitude towards new cars is widely shared and is growing in popularity. I think the trend we will see is car-guys will likely still buy new cars, but they will also look to own an older car as their "fun car"/weekend car.

A little background on what I do with cars. I have been buying up older cars, fixing them, keeping them as close to stock, but mainly focusing my efforts on refreshing the car and bringing them up-to-date on the maintenance. The emphasis is on making the car better than when it came from the factory. Like with my 240SX. I bought a clean chassis that had a blown engine. I planned on swapping out the engine. I did the fewest modifications to make more power, but still be as reliable as possible. The rest of the money went towards refreshing the suspension with as many OEM/300ZX OEM upgrades/Nismo parts as possible. Things like shocks and springs are aftermarket, as well as exhaust, strut tower bars, anti-swaybars and wheels. The end goal of my cars are to be a car that enthusiasts want to buy since most older cars are hacked up and pieced together with aftermarket parts without any attention to normal maintenance.

My three used cars have proven to be good investments. I can sell my 240SX, M3, and Accord wagon for as much as I have put into them, if not more. I bought all 3 when the market for them hit rock-bottom. Bought my 240SX for $750 12 years ago, M3 for $4K 4 years ago, and my wagon for $2500 4 years ago. I think as time marches on, they will continue to go up in value as clean cars from that era will become harder and harder to find, especially in good condition.

This thought process has led me to here. I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars. I noticed the Boxster has hit the bottom. I never really cared for the Boxster because I preferred the S2000. I think the 986 Boxster is an under-rated car - then and now. I feel this car will become more desired as the years pass by, mainly because they will become rare since many are blowing engines at an alarming rate.

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars? Pick up a roller for around $2500, focus the money on making the engine reliable (seriously considering a rebuilt and upgraded 2.9L from a company like Raby). Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years? I can see that happening.

Your thoughts?

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

If you like a 928 or 944 it's good that your handy because eventually the only people driving these cars will be DIY'ers because of the costs of parts and labor will be too high for most.

This is absolutely correct. Four out of every five Porsche-only independent shops that I contact won't even touch my son's 944 Turbo. None of their tech's known anything about trouble-shooting a pre-OBDII car, the parts are very hard to find, and the repair expense is almost always unjustified based on the low value of the car.

[husker boxster]

It seems we've scared PG off or he's inwardly digesting our 28 pearls of wisdom.

[jdraupp]

Yeah, don't own a Porsche because you're trying to invest. That only worked for guys who bought 356s in the 70s and stored them or early 911s in the 80s. Your best bet for an investment Porsche would be a mid 70s air cooled 911sc. Those are about at the bottom of the air cooled bubble and if you can get one in good shape sub 20k you'll see that back in a few years. Boxsters? No way. I don't see the 944 appreciating and those are way older than the boxster. The only 928 that will maybe appreciate is a 5 speed car you get dirt cheap or the later gts.