I want my Boxter To handle like a Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ and Scion FR-S

[steved0x]

I think the thread is in good fun, or at least most of it. There were about a dozen frs/brz at my first autocross a few weeks ago (out of 90'ish cars) and they rocked. I was the only boxster, the only other Porsche was an older 911 who had fastest time of the day... There was one at RRR last time I went too (interestingly his main comment was on tires, I think he has the OEM Michelin tires on still, primacy I think) and he wanted more grip....

The officer at my son's wreck of his Miata suggested the frs as a good safe replacement. As if the insurance on a 95 195k Miata would cover it �� I wish...

Edit: if I could shoot forward in time 10-15 years I bet I could get a deal on one... ��

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by Porsche9

.......... and younger generation does not have the interest in cars that young people once had. Heck few of them even know how to drive a manual transmission.

Agreed. My understanding is that the entire auto industry is struggling to attract new, young buyers. To this demographic, owning a car may not be a necessity, or even desirable.

INHO, the BRZ/FRS is an excellent entry into the sport car field. Whether or not this platform, or this generation's interest, has any "legs", remains to be seen.

Just sayin'...........

TO

[Porsche9]

At my last PCA HPDE at Bondurant's West track one of the instructors had one with proper wheels and tires and he had absolutely no problem keeping up with the faster (in a straight line) cars including driver's in the advanced group. Yes on the one longer straight pretty much everyone except for the 944s pulled away but he was able to catch up with most of them in the twisties.

In many ways the FSR reminds me of my old 944S2. That car was front engined, rear drive and had 208hp. Sound familar? I'm sure with wheels/tires and driver being equal the FSR would quicker then the 944S2. How much did the 944S2 cost back in the day? Well into the $40s. Add inflation to that and the FSR becomes a complete bargin.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Porsche9

I think most enthusiast are happy to see the FRS/BZR twins. There is nothing that comes close to what they have to offer in the new car market. The one sad fact is that they are not selling as well as the initial interest level would have indicated. Part of it is that the market for these type of cars is limited. Most of the older enthusiast that like that car tend to want to go for something higher up the ladder and younger generation does not have the interest in cars that young people once had. Heck few of them even know how to drive a manual transmission. If they drive the auto (I did) it leaves much to be desired in terms of forward thrust. Hope they sell more so that there are plenty of used ones to turn into cheap track day cars.

problem is that young people are broke. The recession/reset has left them behind because out of work older people are taking their hourly jobs. The other issue is that millenials, and this is from experience, simply do not believe in busting their humps largely for the benefit of others. Meanwhile they expect to be paid well and they expect a certain level of quality of life. Previous generations weren't nearly so ballsy or entitled.
If owning a nice car on their own dime and not one gifted to them means taking a part time job just to pay for it, they're not interested. They'd rather rely on their two feets, a hipster bicycle or take the family car whenever its available. They no longer see a car as freedom like previous generations. Fun stuff but between the insurance and the payments ...not worth it to them.

[kk2002s]

Careful putting down Toyota. Didn't their efficiency experts slap Porsche into the 21st century regarding auto manufacturing and fundamentally put them back onto a profitable track

I was very interested in the BRZ or FR1 or what ever they call it (Subaru, Scion, Toyota) at the time I was looking and bought my Boxster
But because you couldn't order fatter better handling tires, I moved on

Happy I did though I thing those cars are sharp and have lots of potential

I will admit that this winter in the snow, my beater 2000 eclipse, is a blast using the hand brake to slide it around the corners. With front wheel drive, Pull the brake, slide 90 degrees, hit the gas and you are a Rally champion. My Wife just hates it

[dghii]

I'm a little biased. My gainfully employed 24 year old Son purchased a white FR-S last spring as his first new car. He purchased it with the proper 6 speed and not much else in the way of options. The car listed for $25.5 and he (with my help) was able to negotiate the car down to $23.5K despite the dealers selling the cars for list +.

I'm not a new car kind of guy as they all seem so overpriced. After driving the FR-S and giving it a good once over, I came away truly feeling like the car offered considerable bang for the buck. Go The car was much nicer than I expected and looks and feels like a proper sports car and not a poser.

So far, the car has been bullet proof. My son has AX'ed it twice and has faired quite well despite the stock tires. My son was well aware of the Prius tires before purchasing the car. Since so many owners remove the OEM tires, he's picked up another set of OEM tires (w/under 2K miles) for
$100. The tires are fine for his daily 25 mile freeway commute and has allows a budget for track tires if he continues to AX!

My son loves my Boxster, having driven it during visits home during school breaks, but is not a true ragtop kind of person. Although he could have purchased a used Boxster, and is mechanically able to work on the car himself, a 10 year old used Boxter it would have carried much higher interest and insurance rates. He would have always had the unknown costs of potential repairs, not to mention that as his only car, he needed something he could count on, day in, day out.

Would I buy an FR-S? No, but simply because the top doesn't go down, not because its not a proper sports car.

[BIGJake111]

As a young enthusiest myself I can say that we are a rare breed. Plenty of guys think "lambos" are cool and many love the GTR and z cars (this is mostly the flat billed cap on backwards crowd) there are also many tuner kids. But there are few kids who would care a single bit or even know what an Alfa Romeo is, or why you'd want one over a much faster car.

[steved0x]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

... or take the family car whenever its available. They no longer see a car as freedom like previous generations.

Out of mine, my 19 year old finally got his license when he was 18; my other 18 has a learner's permit but no license, and my girlfriend's 17 year old son does not even have a learner's permit, and his two cousins that are both over 18 have only 1 learner's permit between them. I remember my dad driving me to the DMV to take my test on my 16th birthday and then I drove myself to school. It is a different world today...

[Porsche Chick]

This year's field includes all nine contenders from Motor Trend's 2012 Best Driver's Car competition. We have the Lamborghini Aventador, Nissan GT-R Black Edition, Ford Shelby GT500, McLaren MP4-12C, Jaguar XKR-S, Porsche 911 Carrera S, Subaru BRZ, Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Black Series and Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 -- all gathered together on an abandoned airstrip at El Toro Marine Base to find out which car is the fastest.

World's Greatest Drag Race 2! - YouTube

Race starts at the 2:12 mark. The BRZ is the one at just past 3 minutes that is dead last and just kind of swirls around in dismay.

So, yeah, for slow 360's I can see the appeal.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by dghii

I'm a little biased. My gainfully employed 24 year old Son purchased a white FR-S last spring as his first new car. He purchased it with the proper 6 speed and not much else in the way of options. The car listed for $25.5 and he (with my help) was able to negotiate the car down to $23.5K despite the dealers selling the cars for list +.

I'm not a new car kind of guy as they all seem so overpriced. After driving the FR-S and giving it a good once over, I came away truly feeling like the car offered considerable bang for the buck. Go The car was much nicer than I expected and looks and feels like a proper sports car and not a poser.

So far, the car has been bullet proof. My son has AX'ed it twice and has faired quite well despite the stock tires. My son was well aware of the Prius tires before purchasing the car. Since so many owners remove the OEM tires, he's picked up another set of OEM tires (w/under 2K miles) for
$100. The tires are fine for his daily 25 mile freeway commute and has allows a budget for track tires if he continues to AX!

My son loves my Boxster, having driven it during visits home during school breaks, but is not a true ragtop kind of person. Although he could have purchased a used Boxster, and is mechanically able to work on the car himself, a 10 year old used Boxter it would have carried much higher interest and insurance rates. He would have always had the unknown costs of potential repairs, not to mention that as his only car, he needed something he could count on, day in, day out.

Would I buy an FR-S? No, but simply because the top doesn't go down, not because its not a proper sports car.

it is the perfect autox and daily driver. The Miata is great but too small for highways full of SUVs and giant pick ups. The Boxster/Cayman is obviously a great too but an out-of-warranty Porsche is not for young budgets because even if you can do your own repairs the parts are still very expensive. I really wish Chevrolet made a car like the FRS with some C7 styling with250'ish HP. Like a mini C7 at an excellent entry price.

Originally Posted by steved0x

Out of mine, my 19 year old finally got his license when he was 18; my other 18 has a learner's permit but no license, and my girlfriend's 17 year old son does not even have a learner's permit, and his two cousins that are both over 18 have only 1 learner's permit between them. I remember my dad driving me to the DMV to take my test on my 16th birthday and then I drove myself to school. It is a different world today...

Millenials grew up spending way too much time indoors and in front of computer monitors, iphones, ipads, etc.
It's like 90% of their existence isn't even in the real world, it's on a website or FB page that doesn't require them to even leave the house! It also seems like my friends with kids those ages didn't really do the family outing thing (to a place other than the Apple store) every weekend like previous generations.

[dghii]

Three out of four of our boys (17 to 24) are car guys. Not bad...

I just wish they were all paying for their own car insurance (they did buy there own cars)!

[KRAM36]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

The narrow tires are not the only reason why the FRS gets thumbs up from the magazine guys.
The FRS engine has a lower COG than the Boxster/Cayman only the F360 and LFA are lower as far as mass produced-conventional engine road cars (according to SCION).
Plus it's got a reliable, low maintenance boxer engine with RWD. You're not going to get that with any new car for that price. Not even close. And No need to spend $2-3K on "IMS" stuff like we do. Sure you can buy an old Porsche and get the RWD/Boxer but you'll be taking your chances on thousands of dollars in unexpected repairs/maintenance. As someone who has spent at least $14K on such (well before the car even hit 100K mile), I can see the appeal of the FRS for under $25K with a nice, handy warranty.
Toyota deserve credit for putting a car like that together even when there's not really an obvious budget-market demand for it.

skinny tires, fat tires, it's getting around Jarama GP circuit just fine here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g

80% of what a Boxster/Cayman can deliver at any track for only a fraction of the price? That's called common sense use of money in sport.

I don't see that car going around the Jarama GP circuit just fine. This is one of the journalist I'm talking about, praising the car, when it's handling is rubbish. The car is sliding all over the place, wow that's impressive. Seriously? An underpowered car gets a set of Prius tires thrown on it so it feels like it has power.

[dghii]

200+ HP is underpowered? Remind me again of the HP in a $50K+(new) in a base 986?

[dghii]

You are right about the tires, no doubt. I remember this article....
2013 Scion FR-S Performance Testing With Tire Swap - The Right Tires Make the FR–S Faster – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track

So what's the big deal about just getting better tires if it will make that much of an improvement in the car? After all, many 986 owners purchase a $500 bearing to keep our cars ten year old cars from becoming uhm, much slower, read stationary, sports car.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by KRAM36

I don't see that car going around the Jarama GP circuit just fine. This is one of the journalist I'm talking about, praising the car, when it's handling is rubbish. The car is sliding all over the place, wow that's impressive. Seriously? An underpowered car gets a set of Prius tires thrown on it so it feels like it has power.

The car is not underpowered. Underpowered for who? Patrick Long or a guy wanting to go the Starbucks 1.5 minutes faster? Power needs are relative to the objective of the car. This is not a GT3 track toy. It's a low cost road car. Even for the track its engine produces more than enough power to get the average road car driver up a tree.
This car was designed to allow its driver to use all of the power all of the time without ending up teets up. If you need more HP, you can get more HP. Most drivers starting out with sports cars can not claim its not fast enough.
Maybe to drag race their friend to next stop light. You don't need a sports car for that. A pick up truck will do.

Why do you say its handling is rubbish exactly? You've got a mix of low COG, RWD, short wheel base, responsive engine and fairly decent curb weight with good driver position and visibility. How many other cars can you name that provide this for less than $30K? So Harris likes to drift, a lot... what's that got to do with all of the aforementioned..

[ProjectM96]

I remember I was on my way to a car meet. A Scion FR-S with exhaust and intake decided to play around with me.

We raced. I won. We parked next to each other at the meet. It turned out that the guy loved Porsche's and he was shocked when I told him I paid $10,000 for it. It depressed him even more when he found out that my Boxster has more hp and torque and weighs less than his FR-S.

I assume he ended up looking for Boxster's online when he got home.

[Perfectlap]

^ or maybe he read about the cost to upgrade the IMS, replace the clutch on a high mile Boxster, as well as the cost of tweaking the suspension, exhaust, the marginal gains you get from engines mods, doing preventative maintenace of the cooling system, as well as the numerous known weak spots of the Porsche, that then require having a back up savings account which must be added to as time goes by.
.... And then maybe he decided to keep his $200-$300 monthly payment to the SCION dealer with a full manufacturer's warranty.

$10K Porsche? Only if you never drive it.

[Porsche9]

Who says small, underpowered cars with great handling can't take out more powerful cars with a skilled from behind the wheel? This Miata appears to have no problem takes out Boxsters and Caymans plus a bunch of other faster cars.

Miata Passes 15 Car at Sebring In Single Lap - Video - Road & Track

[ekam]

Originally Posted by KRAM36

So I'm going to throw some Prius tires on it and have a real sports car!

Ever tried running 205 front, 225 rear snow tires on 17"s? It can get pretty tail happy.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Porsche9

Who says small, underpowered cars with great handling can't take out more powerful cars with a skilled from behind the wheel? This Miata appears to have no problem takes out Boxsters and Caymans plus a bunch of other faster cars.

Miata Passes 15 Car at Sebring In Single Lap - Video - Road & Track

THat's CJ Wilson's new team, the Angel's pitcher who posts on Rennlist. He started racing Miatas, drives McLaren 12C as his daily driver and will be getting one of the first P1's in the U.S.

Great video. Totally really underlines the point with a broad brush.