What went wrong here?

[rfuerst911sc]

Join your local PCA or SCCA and run as many autocross events as you can. Great way to learn car control, improve as a driver and meet some great folks. Usually at the PCA events there are instructors that can REALLY help you learn your cars limits. Don't take this the wrong way but just your asking on this forum what happened tells me you are NOT ready to go out on a road course at high speed. Get as many AX's under your belt at relatively slow speed and learn your car, suspension, brakes and tires plus yourself ! Then go out and get on a road course. Ultimately the goal is to have fun, be safe, become a better driver and above all return home in one piece

[Frodo]

Don't know how chilly it gets in Oakdale, CA, this time of year, but if you're riding on summer performance tires, temperature can definitely be a factor as well. When shopping for tires on tirerack.com, with these tires you'll typically note the warning: "Like all summer tires, it is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

I learned this lesson the hard way going out to grab some take-out. It was cool, low-40s or high 30s, which generally hadn't been a problem for me---I knew to take it a bit easier under such circumstances. This time, however, it started to rain gently shortly after I left home. Cold + Wet + summer performance tires is a REALLY bad combo!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by jacabean

it's a lot worse in the 911 .

well maybe with the antique 911's. With the modern 911's (964 onwards) you get much more of a heads up when you're gonna swap ends. With the Boxster, when it spins, it spins, by the time you realize the rear's broken loose... too late.
And the spin itself is not like a pendulus 911 spin where you end up on the side of the road. More like a top pulled from a string.

I'm glad I spun it that first week of ownership it made me respect that the throttle and take it EASY when the ground was damp and cold.

[scottvd]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Join your local PCA or SCCA and run as many autocross events as you can. Great way to learn car control, improve as a driver and meet some great folks. Usually at the PCA events there are instructors that can REALLY help you learn your cars limits. Don't take this the wrong way but just your asking on this forum what happened tells me you are NOT ready to go out on a road course at high speed. Get as many AX's under your belt at relatively slow speed and learn your car, suspension, brakes and tires plus yourself ! Then go out and get on a road course. Ultimately the goal is to have fun, be safe, become a better driver and above all return home in one piece

^ ya I need the 101 course for sure. Been reading through the "What I learned on the track" sticky, that's helpful too. An acquaintance of mine is really involved with SCCA - he just told me about it yesterday and said I should join. Thx for the input! (:

Don't know how chilly it gets in Oakdale, CA, this time of year, but if you're riding on summer performance tires, temperature can definitely be a factor as well. When shopping for tires on tirerack.com, with these tires you'll typically note the warning: "Like all summer tires, it is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

For sure - thanks - good thing to keep in mind. Temperatures are about 35 at night and 65 during day right now, dry. I'm not even sure what tires I have on, PO said they were same as the "stock" tires that came with the car. Thx again.

[Mark_T]

This hasn't been my experience with the Boxster at all. There have been a couple of times when I have got on the gas too soon coming out of a corner or cloverleaf and the back end has come loose. A slight lift, a quick counter-steer, and it snaps back to straight again, ready for the throttle. I've never had a car that corrects from an oversteer slide as smoothly and easily as this one. Maybe this is because I am running Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus tires, although they are 5 seasons old and getting pretty hard.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by Mark_T

This hasn't been my experience with the Boxster at all. There have been a couple of times when I have got on the gas too soon coming out of a corner or cloverleaf and the back end has come loose. A slight lift, a quick counter-steer, and it snaps back to straight again, ready for the throttle. I've never had a car that corrects from an oversteer slide as smoothly and easily as this one. Maybe this is because I am running Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus tires, although they are 5 seasons old and getting pretty hard.

+1
Boxster is one of the best street vehicles ever made to do what you direct it to do. Unfortunately if you give the wrong directions it follows those also without prejudice.

All modern vehicles are designed to go straight thru steering axis inclination & proper castor settings. Therefore the moment I feel I have lost control I release my grip on the steering wheel allowing it to spin freely between my hands til it self centers & the car is going straight again. Now I can make minimal steering input to regain intended direction of travel.

[CoBeerToad]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

Can someone please acknowledge this was way too funny. Or am I the only one loosing it here.... I almost pissed my pants after reading this

(off to work... can't stick on this forum... hurts)

It sure was.

[woodsman]

Originally Posted by scottvd

No, don't have the PSM option on this Box. :/

I thought PSM became standard in 2002???

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by woodsman

I thought PSM became standard in 2002???

Option starting in 2000. One of the reasons a DME upgrade was required.

[jacabean]

Originally Posted by thstone

You tried to turn and accelerate at the same time beyond the limit of rear tire traction. In other words, you broke the rear tires loose by accelerating hard in a corner.

Then, once the car started to rotate beyond the turn, you got behind in your steering and did not react fast enough to "catch it". Net result, you spun it around.

Nothing that a few track days can't teach.

And the 911 isn't worse, it is just "different". The Boxster rotates much easier and faster but is generally easy to catch using a majority of steering inputs. That's why people say that its "easier" to drive at the limit. But you need quick hands in a Boxster or you'll spin.

On the other hand, the 911 rotates more slowly but that rear end has a lot of momentum so it takes a lot more effort/skill to halt the rotation and reverse it and usually requires both steering and throttle inputs to do it right (which is technically more difficult than just steering alone).

different , more like scary compared to the boxster . the driving i have done in my boxster I would not dare too do in the 911 . I am also not very experienced driving a 911 either .

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by scottvd

^ ya I need the 101 course for sure. Been reading through the "What I learned on the track" sticky, that's helpful too. An acquaintance of mine is really involved with SCCA - he just told me about it yesterday and said I should join. Thx for the input! (:

Autocross is much more useful in terms of real world driving. The mix of layouts is limited due to the size of lots and after about a dozen events you've pretty much seen everything you're going to see: six pin, four pin, three pin, left, right, slalom, Chicago box, haripin, no pin... you get the point.
While on a road course you're learning to be smooth with long pauses (straights) in between. With autocross you're trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible while upsetting the balance of the car as little as possible...as Randy Pobst (professional driver who is a big autocrosser) once said "its basically connecting a series of power slides". Sometimes smoother is better sometimes its not because you don't have a long straight to make up deficit. But the point is that most real-world situations where you need to save your hide will more closely resemble something you've done a hundred times in autocross than nailing the esses at your local track. And because of the number of turns and corners are so much higher in autocross you learn to manage the brake with much more practice. One of the great things about autocrossing the Boxster is that you see that this isn't a "just a cheap Porsche" but perhaps the best braking paired with the most neutral handling you can get out of any road car no matter the price. When people talk down this car right away I know they don't know much about actual driving. Most of the time they just know plenty about buying cars.

The next best thing is to do some karting. Find an "arrive and drive" place near you. This will help you "see the course", I think driving is more about what you do with your eyes than what you do with hands and feets. Everything follows from the eyes. Plus you'll get more seat time than in autocross or that once in a while track day. I was karting before I could ride a bicycle. Those were the days, someone else paying for your fun...

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

Can someone please acknowledge this was way too funny. Or am I the only one loosing it here.... I almost pissed my pants after reading this

(off to work... can't stick on this forum... hurts)

+1... though my liver would probably consider itself "most abused" organ and not "second favorite."

[stephen wilson]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

All modern vehicles are designed to go straight thru steering axis inclination & proper castor settings. Therefore the moment I feel I have lost control I release my grip on the steering wheel allowing it to spin freely between my hands til it self centers & the car is going straight again. Now I can make minimal steering input to regain intended direction of travel.

I've done that when I need to take steering out quickly when "snapping back" after counter-steering for a slide, I think that's what you mean? I'm sure you can't just let go when the tail steps out.

Scott, were you shifting from 1st to 2nd while turning, or from 3rd to 2nd?

[TeamOxford]

AXs and DEs are great for getting seat time; for learning a course or a new car. They will NOT erase incorrect driving techniques.

IMHO, it's best to learn proper high speed driving techniques from a qualified instructor.

Once one learns the basics, then any further driving events aid the driver in mastering these techniques.

And just to be CLEAR, drive with your brain..................

TO

p.s. I thought alangning's post was a hoot!

[stephen wilson]

I also think some reading is mandatory. You have to understand the physics that define how a car responds to your inputs.

[LAP1DOUG]

Lots of good advice here. I would strongly recommend learning at on an auto-x course where the consequences of a spin "usually" aren't that bad. When you get to the point where you are intensionally shifting weight to the front to start rotation, and then catching it with throttle application to shift weight rearward, you have arrived.

That said, you should have alignment checked to make sure nothing is off. Make sure you have at least zero toe to slight toe-in at the rear, otherwise it can be very twitchy. Also make sure the rear camber is good. I like to run about -2.5 degrees at the rear. Make sure nothing is binding with the sway bar that would make the spring rate suddenly go up, and finally check that the tires have decent tread matching front to rear. Some tires (Dunlop ZI's for instance) are noted for loosing traction when they get to the very end of their tread life.

[scottvd]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

I've done that when I need to take steering out quickly when "snapping back" after counter-steering for a slide, I think that's what you mean? I'm sure you can't just let go when the tail steps out.

Scott, were you shifting from 1st to 2nd while turning, or from 3rd to 2nd?

Tons of good input here, thanks again everyone. I was shifting from 1st to 2nd. I had taking 1st up to circa 6400rpm, shift to second came just when I was really engaging the steering wheel for the turn..

[haz]

Originally Posted by scottvd

Tons of good input here, thanks again everyone. I was shifting from 1st to 2nd. I had taking 1st up to circa 6400rpm, shift to second came just when I was really engaging the steering wheel for the turn..

Oooh... recipe for disaster there. Why rev up to as high as 6400 at all when planning on turning the steeringwheel AND shifting up? You were basically asking for it, sorry. Luckily no damage, right?

[scottvd]

Originally Posted by haz

Oooh... recipe for disaster there. Why rev up to as high as 6400 at all when planning on turning the steeringwheel AND shifting up? You were basically asking for it, sorry. Luckily no damage, right?

^ ya - no damage. Mostly good came from this - because it was close to damage.. you know those near death experiences when everything slows down and there's an amazing sense of clarity.. it wasn't near death or anything but it did feel like time was about 10% normal speed and I had complete recognition of what was happening: "Second day with my car and here we go, going to wreck into the side of that pickup."

So it was close enough to totally get my attention - RWD is nothing like my AWD subbie! (:

[pharaohjb]

True... if you think about what you did:

1. Fast acceleration - presuming you're at 6400 rpm, you're near redline, and likely got there pretty quickly. Physically, that throws a lot of weight onto the rear tires (where it should be for good traction in a RWD car).
2. Upshifting - you've now thrown the weight OFF of the back tires as there's less acceleration. Not as bad as braking, but you now don't have the same force pushing down on the rear tires.
3. Turning the wheel - you've also now got a bit MORE grip on the fronts since you've upshifted and shifted the weight off the rear tires.


Hitting the accelerator again in this state is a recipe for disaster. Not only will the rear end break loose easier when you hit the throttle, the additional grip the fronts have will send you spinning easier, since they're not pointed in a straight line.

That's my estimation, anyway. Those with more track experience, feel free to correct me!