What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?
 

I'm doing some research which could yield a smart way to evaluate IMS health (at least smarter than two pins which light up a LED when connected by metal shavings) and , real time, give you the ability to see that the bearing is failing (without looking at it!). Needless to say there are many ways. I've looked around for the part number and manufacture of the dual row IMS bearing but haven't found anything.

Ultimately I need some technical specs of the bearing and without being able to take my bearing out to test with (its my DD), I need a data sheet or two. Anybody have any information on it?

Porsche use many manufacturers of bearings - SKF, FAG, NSK, etc, etc, basically which ever bearing supplier won the supply contract for that year.
They can be sourced from Japan, Great Britain, Poland or the Republic of China........

You are reinventing the wheel, the Guardian is simple, and works : IMS Guardian | IMS Guardian. The first advanced warning system for Intermediate Shaft (IMS) failures!

I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

A teaser: involves working with a tenured PHD at my school who specializes in internal combustion engine vibrations and friction surfaces in camshafts inside F1 engines.

When I solve this simple problem, I will share the wealth. Until then, I need the info on the pressure breakdown of the dual row IMSB.


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I figured it would be SKF, but does anyone have their old bearing or pictures of the old bearing? I'm trying to find a video which has a shot of the part number on the side of the OEM IMSB


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What is the rational for focusing on the dual row? The data (though suspect as always) suggests that the failure rate of the single row is much higher.

I thought I recall seeing a detailed paper on the bearing(s) used,but have not recently seen it....will look again.

Sounds like a worthy effort!

The reason for the dual row focus is because my car has a dual row ;)

The solution to assessing the health of the bearing is so damn simple, and I can't believe I just thought of how to do it yesterday. Needless to say, after I brought it up to my PI (the phd engine guy), he too immediately said there is such a simple solution, and its the same idea I had. It requires math and stuff, but hey, thats why I'm in graduate school.

If you had that paper that would be most excellent. I could solve my problem if I could just pull my bearing out. (anybody got an old bearing to send to me?):rolleyes:

If you don't want the bearing to fail, install the DOF, but here's the info ...
 

... you asked for:

Dual Row bearing
NSK BD20-17
6204DUA17

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...psf1927609.jpg

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

And here's mine, recently removed from a 2000 Boxster S.http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01/IMS1381439721.jpg

I believe the paper I recall was from LN, but I do not currently see it on their site. A lot of information if you have not been there, also links on the same page....

IMS 101 | IMS Retrofit

These are excellent, thanks! Any way you could retake with better lighting so I can see all the numbers? I can see the NGK manufacture, this is a great start. Maybe you could just type the numbers you see into a response?

Oops, i now see the numbers! Thanks much

I would not be so quick or dismissive of the Guardian design; the technology has been around for decades and is in wide use on mission critical engines such as combat aircraft. The Guardian also has a rather substantial installed base, which has also demonstrated its effectiveness in spotting the onset of IMS bearing failures.

subscribing! I am hoping for something that doesn't require me to pull the transmission and is less money than the Guardian. Six months till my next track day!

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

It does not matter what triggers it. What the Guardian will do is alert you to the fact that there is substantial ferrous grit accumulating in the oil system; regardless of where it comes from, it is an extreme danger to the engine and requires immediate cessation of running the engine until it can be examined to find out why it was triggered. Without it, you would blindly continue to grind the Hell out of the internal components until total failure occurred. Could be an IMS issue, could be a cam or cam follower coming apart, could be a rod or main failing, or any one of a number of common failure points; but it still would be caught before it tore the engine apart, and possibly allow the engine to be saved.

Are we a little grouchy today epapp?? Sheesh! I sent you to that Feelyx thread in your quest for bearing #s, not because I thought he found the Holy Grail. Sheesh!



Remember the first rule of business success: People buy from sellers they like. Smile and be nice. Show appreciation when others round up data on your behalf. It works. :D

Haha, well it certainly wasn't written in a grouchy tone. More so I was miffed that a guy with all the right equipment to do a good bearing test wasn't doing it properly! (Seriously, how could anyone think that testing a bearing for 200+ days with no load would be any comparison to a M96 IMSB??)

But I just couldn't understand how the OP could gather such a following when all the effort he was putting fourth was going to waste (at least from what I saw, maybe he did add a load to the bearing later).

I also don't plan to make a living from this idea I have, but I do hope it to help many other people. Buuuut, if someone wants to send me a new coolant reservoir, you'll get the first of my IMSB health concoctions

That's just it. The IMS Guardian is really an engine guardian. If any engine sees enough ferromagnetic wear metals to initiate an Alert, those levels are indicative of some other form of failure that's imminent.

To date the IMSG has saved engines with timing chains failing, lifters failing, valve springs failing and more. All of these failures have the potential to rival IMSB failure in regard to collateral damages.

The fact that the IMSG can sense more than an IMSB failure is not a con, it's a plus. Especially when an engine has 24 other documented modes of failure other then the IMSB.

Interesting to see what you've thought of.. Considering your question in the thread here I have a pretty good idea already. You might want to carry out a patent search sooner rather than later.

I agree its a plus that the IMSG means much more than just a bearing problem, i.e. alerting you of more than just IMSB failure.

But the failure rate of those other parts you mentioned seem to me to have a much lower probability of failure when compared to the IMSB. Sure cam chains can break, and the IMSG will probably pick up on the metal fragments and alert you, but my quest is to solve the issue of unknown IMSB health given my cam chains will probably be fine for the life of the engine (probably just jinxed myself).

I'm not the type that loses sleep over my IMSB failing, but it sure is time for some real engineering (probably set off some short fuses with that one).

epapp.... shortish fuses maybe but......

Over the last 40 years working in Engineering around the world I've been associated with some very smart guys - BSc's, MSc's and Dr's, Hons grads etc, etc. Most of these young guns thought they were Gods Gift to the Engineering World As We Know It, but that mindset only lasted a couple of years after graduation & reality kicked in - sometimes you have to put aside the theory and look at the problem from a wholly realistic & practical view based on years of hands on analysis. Many a humble shop Foreman has outwitted his new Grad Eng on the practicalities of life.

Now I agree that new ideas from keen minds are the stuff of dreams, but remember that some people have been at the IMS coal face for over 10 years, pioneering solutions that have saved us mere mortals a whole wad of money with their combined expertise, knowledge and commitment. Flat 6's Jake Raby, LN Engineering's Charles Navaro and Hartech's Barry Hart are no fools and have earned their spurs the hard way. To say that you are going to add "some real engineering" to the IMS problem (which by the way, they were working on when you were probably still going through puberty) is going to be very interesting.

I for one am looking forward to your revelation regarding a new course of action - the Epapp Solution (Pappsolution) perhaps ...........

Not so much. I currently have failed engines in my facility from 23 states & 3 Canadian provinces, and they came to me in their respective Porsches shipped from all over North America.

Of those TWO of them are here for failed IMS Bearings. The rest are here for one of the other 24 modes of failure. In the last 6 weeks we have seen 4 broken timing chains and have caught one more that was in the process of failing and was discovered while qualifying an engine for an IMS Solution retrofit procedure.

The reason why more of the other failures occur today and less IMSB failures is primarily because more engines have been proactively retrofitted. Another reason is because the other issues have always been there and because we have always seen them, they just haven't been highlighted like the IMSB issue. When I have tried to share this I was just blacklisted as a "fear monger" for exposing this. I pulled those details off the site because I got tired of it. The jobs find us, no matter what.

To see some examples look at the albums on my facebook page
Flat 6 Innovations Facebook page

Concerning "real Engineering", well there's always more than one way to achieve the same end result. Some are better than others and some are overly complicated. Simplicity drives my personal developments. The component that isn't there, can't fail. Thats why the IMS Solution eliminates 11 wear components found within the OEM single row IMSB.

While I believe the laws of Physics are laws in the real world there can be so many variables and conditions that the laws are difficult, impractical or impossible to apply.

I recall a long discussion with a PhD in Physics that could not explain why countersteering a motorcycle works, and even questioned that it does work.

In my book best idea wins! Best luck to all that try to solve these problems and please hurry up my double row has 104K mi and I am too cheap to change it before clutch time.

This is actually getting quite comical. "Real engineering"... please. :rolleyes:

At every PCA event I am surrounded by successful engineers, business owners, physicists, medical doctors, rocket scientists, race team owners, and F1 engine suppliers. The ones who build on the groundwork laid by those with years of hands-on experience and apply their specialized skills are thriving. The ones who ignore or discount those with the most direct hands-on experience go nowhere fast.

Carry on. :)

Yeah, I was kinda interested in what young Ponder Stibbons here had to say, right up until the "real engineering" comment. Could be just me, but I thought that was a tad arrogant.

Btw, will this be called the ePap test?

[QUOTE=epapp;367111]Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.


automobile application may be different from high speed servo, but I was informed that the "grease" portion was natural or paraffin and is added to hold the oil. that oil is the lubricant.

Us ignorant bumpkins have no idea what we are doing.............

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/phot...-2000-1561.jpg

Or its potentially Debris Oil Feeding the component, catalyzing the chances of failures.

Who knows, tons of mouse traps out there now. I remember when there were none and we had to create the first one.

Fishing lures catch more fisherman than fish.

Skeptic or not, stick around.

Yes it is arrogant to say real engineering...blah blah blah. We are allow working towards the same goal here, I just have to make myself feel like my solution is better so I will actually build the damn thing.

I will promise one thing: my IMSB health monitoring solution will be conclusive. If I release it, it will be because the data is reasonably accurate and can be replicated.

Once I can judge my IMSB health, I will probably need to crowd source for some more data. Since I don't have 10 boxsters laying around, I'll need a way to gather data of different IMSB healths to make any kind of judgement.


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Be prepared to force an engine failure under controlled conditions with the system employed. I sacrificed two engines during the development of the IMSG, one of which was specifically built to be killed by installing an IMSB into it that was already at stage 3 IMSB failure.

If you need to gather this data and gather the data I do have these engines in my lab and they are available. Currently one of them is being used for similar research, so a compound test may be possible.

Projections and assumptions don't cut it.

But it wouldn't be cheap.

I wouldn't necessarily need to force engine failure, I just would like to test with more than one engine. Only testing the system on my bearing will still show the health of my bearing, no other information needed. My system will not rely on known failure modes to function properly.

Opinions may vary.

I had a deep desire to see exactly how much run time would occur after an IMS alert was initiated, before the engine had symptoms otherwise and then how much longer it would take to scatter parts.

I felt that development wasn't complete until I had experienced failure and knew how the system would both perform and respond.

Like I said, I'd spend the time and money on a patent search. You might just find something that will surprise you, and find it from a surprising source.

Coming from a GP paddock in Superbike racing, from what's left to me to tell publically is the LN Guardian idea is already widely utilized by all manufacturers doing r&d protoyping and race-ready machinery. A tad bit more advanced however! Real-time oil analysis and monitoring have been necessary for more than two decade already. Today tho... many "commercial" and "cheap" sensors are already able to trigger based on detection of oxidation, additives, thermal changes and various other physical or chemical properties. This technology was possibly coming from your (great phd) professor team (thank you) of course but sadly for you it can already be found in today's commercial shelves everywhere.

So please, don't make us wait for the 986 "adapted" kit!

A PIC programed based microcomputer (or an open sourced Arduino?!), a simple modern sensor with a 14*1mm threaded end, and 3.3v, is what you simply need to put together for your super "Porsche Complete Real-Time (all) Fluid Monitoring System". Oil, coolant, you could also sensor'ed the windows washer fluid.

And what else... oh yea; FAK sensors - they are often stupid! I'd rather just have my $3k backup 986 engine sitting in my garage ;) and I think I also have about 7 other backup motors meant for both my race-ready superbike and practice track bike.

there you go friend, contact Jack for a few prototype sensors.... he'll customized their freq for your given application(s) for the same price as well I'm sure. That's just an idea out of hundreds other available mate ;) https://www.stle.org/assets/document/03-08_OA_Sensors.pdf

Let me know when you are done, I'll sponsor a kit off you (for your study ONLY). I could do with a few extra little blue LEDs on my 986 dash!

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

So you keep saying, but all we've seen so far is a load of bluster and biillshiit.

Then no offence mate but I call it BS. You wouldn't be one of those jealous LN Engineering competitor by any chance?!

Let me call my mates in Milton Keynes at the RedBull R&D.... I'll email you back a job application form. Quit school NOW if you already know better is my best advice.

Well, like I said much earlier, I have a thesis to write. This is a side project of an idea that I had, and has also been verified by a 'bearing' PhD. So YOU can call BS all you'd like, because in my spare time this project will be finished and implemented on my car.

Of course theres no data or testing happening this second, other than playing with the sensors that I plan to use, which also hasn't happened yet....When you're getting paid to get a PhD, you do the PhD work as much as you can.

Maybe in a few months I will have a POC. Then interested people can buy the IP and supply all you haters with my solution. :troll: